A wfp and tradition window cleaning work the same way. The traditional way is to scrub and loosen the dirt with a strip washer then remove the dirty water with a squeegee. There are some environmental spots that need a extra scrub or chemical treatment to remove. A wfp uses a brush to agitate and loosen the dirt then the waterflow to chase it off. With both methods if you leave dirty water you leave streaks. I am sure you use different strip washers like Microtiger and Porcupine if the windows are in need of a good scrub. The same is true of wfp brushes, there are brushes that work better for first cleans than brushes used for Maintenance cleans. We have learned a lot in the last 10 years about how this works. I challenge you to become more educated. Watch these videos
/brush-design-course.html
I will not argue your point, but I will challenge you to be open to more education and see if it does not get you better results. If you plan to stay in this business for a long time, there will come a time when ladders are not a option.
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I am sure that this is a joke but I was thinking today as I was using my WFP on windows that were very oxidized that cameras would be a great thing to have in some spots. What do the rest of you think?
Thanks for the post, but this is entirely assuming that I and whomever else isn’t ‘educated’ on the topic. I have more brushes than I do socks, and I’ve read, watched, and listened to more than enough. Again, it’s all basic, and common sense. I don’t even use more abrasive strip washers, and I’ve tried all of them. The scrubbing power is nothing like a razor or an abrasive pad, and water retention is sacrificed for subpar results. I still prefer a basic monsoon and a separate abrasive pad if need be. Far more effective, and faster.
There are limitations to every tool, and a wfp is no exception.
I do have to say, in some disagreement to you, that John Lee has taught me how to clean oxidized windows to perfection with my WFP. Using a scrub pad on the back of my pole I have been able to eliminate everything (bird crap, finger prints, bug spots, etc.) except for hard water, scratches, and paint.
I cannot say that it does not take longer to set it up and use it sometimes (today a job took me just as long with the pole as without it previously) but at the same time it means no ladders and that is always a plus. I guess that I am seeing both sides here because I want to believe that every situation is different and sometimes old school is the way to go over new tech, but if the new tech it out there and has some obvious benefits then why not use both?
Oh, and to say that a guy can go from knowing nothing to being able to properly WFP in 15 minutes is ridiculous. I learn new stuff everyday and get better everyday and I have been doing this for months including constant research.
Well, exactly. I keep saying it, but I’m not arguing the fact that WFP’s don’t work… Because they do. All I’m saying is that they have their place. Using a doodle bug on the back of a wfp is super clumsy and takes forever to use effectively compared to it being in front of you.
And the reference to 15 minutes was an obvious exaggeration, but it doesn’t take very long.
Time cleaning traditionally vs time cleaning with a wfp, effectively, is a huge difference. Now factor in wfp setup and breakdown divided by windows cleaned with it.
3 story’s and above ill typically always pull out the wfp for obvious reasons, and this is what I mean. Ironically, the higher up the window the less stained they become… For the most part. (For all the literally speaking types)
I guess that we should both say that there is a ratio somewhere that makes WFP worth it involving “Time to set up and use vs. Number of windows” but if the number of windows in small and oddly placed or something like that then Traditional is always going to be better.
The ONE case where I will say that WFP has been WAAAYYY faster for me in the field is divided pane windows. Without a doubt, if I come to a house that has a bunch of divided panes and I use the WFP it is going to save me tons of time (up to 2 hours at some houses in the past). I love the WFP on Frenchies!
I will say that [MENTION=3449]rivet0r[/MENTION] and [MENTION=8040]JYWindowGuy[/MENTION] you guys both sound like owner-operators? Correct me if I’m wrong.
I know that as an employer, I can concentrate better knowing my guys’ feet are safe on solid ground at their job site. We use ladders as necessary, of course, but are constantly searching for ways to limit their use even further. I would estimate that we used an extension ladder on well under half of our homes in 2012.
I pretty much would agree with Rivet0r about everything, except that WFP’ers here are usually so darned Evangelical about the whole thing that I feel someone has to keep them honest.
I have to agree with rivet0r. After about 15 years of traditional cleaning, I was all for using a waterfed pole and was so excited until the first job I used it on. It wasnt as easy as everyone makes it out to be. I kept trying it on different jobs until I was just losing more time on the jobs I used it on. Most of the time I would have been done in half the time if i would have just done the job the traditional way. I think the problem for me is I have gotten to good at the traditional method and can produce alot of work, so a waterfed pole does not shave off enough time om most jobs to make it worth spending the extra time setting it up.
Like Michael’s job. It’s not unusual for me to cut my time in half on return jobs at all. My question would be how long had it been since you cleaned it the first time?
The 2 biggest issues I have with the WFP is hydrophobic glass and rinse time, and first time cleans. First time cleans Are not going to yield as good of results in the same time frame as traditional (traditional will be quicker and most the time better if the cleaner knows what he is doing). with return jobs I can clean most jobs just as fast the traditional way and without the extra set up time. Not all but most.
With hydrophobic glass according to the expert videos I have seen they recommend rinsing every square inch of glass which takes forever compared to using a large squeegee with two pulls down the glass. And now a days every other window or job has hydrophobic glass so you risk set up time just to find out that if you had just grabbed your squeegee bucket and pole the job would have been done in half the time.
I do agree though that there are jobs that the WFP is invaluable on, but for me those jobs are few and far between.
And as for the whole claim that pure water is a super cleaning agent, with no offense to anyone individual, is a load of bologna! It sucks compared to scrubbing with soap! I have ran across tons of jobs where I had to put the WFP away and swicth to soap and squeegee because the water alone was not cleaning the glass, and the soap took it right off with one pass!
I have nothing against WFP’s. I wish that they worked as good as people claim, because if they did I would switch in a heart beat. But I have just not found that to be the case, and I have watched tons of video’s and tried the tricks that just seemed to just waist my time. I can’t help but feel like maybe the guys who think WFP’s are so much better just were not as skilled with the traditional methods. I don’t mean that as an insult in anyway. I’m not saying they weren’t good but that mybe they just had not croosed that threshhold into greatness where you start to produce amazing amounts of work. For me I thought I was a decent window cleaner after 8-10 years of full time work. Out of necessity I was forced to produce more and I found once you break past a certain barrier you jump up quite a bit in the ammount you can produce in a day. The last five years I have been amazed at how efficient I have become, and I was already pretty efficient. I’m in no way boasting, but rather just sharing my experience as to why I have not found WFP’s to be faster or more effective on most jobs. And I would love to be wrong! believe me! Why would I turned down the increase in productivity? No way!
I think you’ve got your answer right there. 8-10+ years of experience at traditional… how many hours do you think that equals out to be? Now, how many hours have you used WFP? Yes, there is a learning curve for WFP, just like there is a learning curve with pressure washing or with driving a stick shift.
I also felt like I was too good at traditional to be bothered with WFP (do you remember that, [MENTION=428]bkwelker[/MENTION]?) and now I am the complete opposite. For me, the safety aspect as I hired people was the biggest reason I committed to getting really good with WFP… and with time and education and learning how to overcome EACH OF THE OBSTACLES that people mentioned in this thread, I am in love with the WFP method of cleaning now.
[MENTION=1783]whatapane[/MENTION]
I won’t quote your post only because its a 5k word essay lol JK
I will admit that it takes a learning curve just as the squeegee and use of a telescope pole did when you started. I was a little late getting into WFP but no regrets. Can we use it on every job? Do we anyway? No to both, however with the amount of residential we do it is an invaluable tool in our arsenal and it is invaluable to large commercial. And first time cleans come down to technique, just like a t-bar and a squeegee. I remember feeling as you described, a little unsatisfied with the spotting. Grabbing a squeegee and redoing windows that I thought the WFP should have done better.
Practice, as they say though, makes perfect. I would not be using WFP if I could not get fantastic results… and my clients would not be using our services any longer either. But like all tools, their is a time and a place. JMO
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No insult taken (or intended), but everything you wrote above could be asked of you also. Perhaps you didn’t allow enough time to have crossed the threshold into WFP greatness where you start to produce amazing amounts of work.
I don’t consider myself a WFP “expert” yet, but I’m very particular about the work I give to my customers. And some of my customers are ridiculously particular as well. And I have had no complaints with WFP jobs - not one, whether on regularly maintained glass or very dirty, neglected glass. It works. And as I learn more, I can make my WFP work even better.
I have one customer who is amazingly picky. Her garden is perfect, her trees are perfect, her house is perfect. She demands that her windows be perfect. I have watched her vacuum her sidewalk with a vacuum cleaner; that’s how picky she is.
The first time I used my WFP on her windows (true divided light) she scrutinized me and my work for the entire job. When I was finished, she commented that the new system was “pretty neat”. She admitted that she did not believe me and was prepared to make me re-do the job when I was done. Now she is a believer. I already was, but it was nice to have that confirmation from my most particular customer.
After 22 years I do believe that I have crossed the threshold into greatness with a squeegee (I like to refer to this state as a “Squeegee Jedi” when talking with my employee), so I am confident that I know what clean glass should look like to a customer who is writing me a big check.
PS. I still use a flip-phone. It won’t break, so I’ll use it until it dies.
I have only been window cleaning just over 4 years and I got into WFP in the first 3 months or so and I probably used it more than I should have! Not knowing when or where to use it i.e. poor sheeting glass, basement windows, possible hard water windows on the first floor and not having a window cleaners eye then did not help.
Now I find I spend probably 60% of my time on the WFP and the rest squeegeeing on the exterior. Here are a couple of things that I have found
Something that helps me with WFP work is as you are running around taking screens off from the inside, take your strip washer to a couple of windows and just run it on the outside of the glass, especially the screen side, if you find it beads up really bad you know it will be a bear to rinse and right then and there that might seal the deal and I will go traditional or may be plan on pulling that window in when I do the inside if it will come out the track easily enough and do the rest of it wfp.
There have been a couple of comments about set up time on WFP in this thread that suggests it may not be worth it and I use to have that problem too when I was using my RHG 5 stage cart, setting up the hose to the spicket and then pulling the hose etc. I only use my cart now on a couple of jobs a year. I now leave it at home in the garage and pretty much just use it to make water, which I store in 55 gallon containers and then I always carry about 12 or so 5 gallon water containers you can buy from wall mart the wide mouth ones and use my Sure flow back pack to deliver the water to my WFP and it is way quicker. There is no set up, no long hoses to get in the way. I start at the back of the house(furthest away from the truck), taking a spare jug with me as I go plus the water in the back pack and I am cleaning in next to no time.
I have grown fond of traditional and have developed some speed through watching different techniques on Youtube and giving them ago and I believe it will get quicker and quicker for me, but when WFP works, which is about 60% or more of the time the results are outstanding and the time saved impressive and the safety aspect hard to compete with.
I agree there is a learning curve but its not like starting from scratch. For me again the specific issues are hydrophobic glass and first time cleans. I did not say you cant do first time cleans I said you can’t do them as fast and as effective. On Residential the other issue is screen removal. If you have to remove the screen anyway your already at the window so why not clean it. If you remove it from the inside you have to put it back on so you either ladder up or go back through the inside which I don’t see being quicker. I just don’t see it being quicker and I don’t see more time using a wfp changing that. I’ve used razors on second story poles with traditional methods and it is not that effective. Straight water does not clean that effective on a lot of first time jobs and that’s not something that takes years to see.
Like I said I want to believe, so make me a believer. So far I am not convinced at all.
