When it comes to the waivers that are available on line, most recommend that the user have the waiver looked at by an attorney. I was wondering how many of you who are using waivers, have had them looked at by an attorney, and if so, were there any suggested changes? Thanks ahead of time,
To tell you the truth, I don’t know that any of the waivers would hold up in court fore sure… Nevertheless, I do use a waiver, but have not had an attorney look it over. I thought I saw one in the forum (online somewhere) that was drawn up by a lawyer … it didn’t look different from others I’ve seen and used, but then again I’m not a lawyer.
i have a neighbor who is an attorney … and i just got my waiver created last night and i am planning to talk to him if he could look over it for me.
I’ll let you guys know what he says and I’ll send over a copy to anyone here who may want one. you can just change my company’s name to your own
Dan Fields may be able to answer this question for you. He’s the go-to guy when it comes to fab. debris and legal matters.
Here is his site if you’re not familiar with him:
I think by the time I hired an attorney to look it over, if the waiver would not hold up in court, would mean that I had to go to court … which means I would then again need that attorney, court costs and time lost, it may all add up to exceed the cost of paying for a disputed window.
I have cleaned and continue to clean a lot of fabricated glass for post construction clean up, windows covered in paint, glue, putty, stucco, etc. I do a quick squeegee clean just to see what is actually stuck and needs scrapping and carefully only scrap the areas of need. Thus far, 99.999% of the time, all defects and scratches that I see, are embedded in between the glass, obviously not something done by a cleaning. Certainly I would have a general waiver signed, but … if I did see the outer layer of the window was scratched, either caused by manufacturing, transport of installers, if concerned that the contractor will not support my waiver, I am not touching that window.
Joie ~ N. CA
Did your neighbor ever look it over?
Be very careful Joie, without very specialized equipment there’s no way of knowing whether fab. Debris is present or not until scraping. Fab. Debris, once dislodged and scracths the glass may only be visible under certain lighting conditions.
Also, if one window is defective, it usually means there’s more. If you go to court, you’ll likely be fighting for everything you own. That’s why I have a waiver signed om every ccu job, and most jobs I use a razor on.
The one thing I’ve seen Dan say is that having a waiver is the key. In recent court cases one company had two different jobs they were being sued over. In one case they didn’t have a waiver in the other they did. The case w/ the waiver they won. The other they lost but the judges decision was that the fabricator shared responsibility to the tune of 55% of the cost.
I’d recommend getting the waiver checked for proper wording and local laws just to close any loopholes but the fact that some judged are now using some common sense and seeing the fabricators are to blame (at least for a part) is the kind of progress we have been waiting for.
I did agree that a waiver should certainly be signed prior to the job. Fortunately, in my case, I am working directly for the builder/contractor/owner and the liability is on his own back and not mine.
Speaking of special lighting conditions … do you know if there is any type of artificial applied lighting one can use to spot some of these conditions? I sure hope I am not repeating a question already posted, I did a search here and googled and found nothing.
Joie ~ N. CA
Dan Fields often talks about scratched glass seasons. That’s when the sun is lower on the horizon all day so the windows get more direct sunlight. You could go to the trouble of replicating this type of lighting but of course it will only help you see already existing FD scratches. The best idea is to get the waiver signed every time.
So please correct me if I am wrong. Micah, my ? was if any of u who use waivers, have had them looked over by an attorney and if so were there any changes to the generic waiver found online? You replied ask dan fields here is his website. then further in posts, you mention you have waivers signed when doing ccu. Have you had your waiver looked over by an attorney? What is it you hope that the waiver will relieve you from in court when accused? When Mountainview mentions that “To tell you the truth, I don’t know that any of the waivers would hold up in court fore sure…” That is a scary statement in this mess the fabricators are forcing us/builder/homeowner to deal with. What I want to know is, the window cleaners that are using these waivers, have u had them looked over by an attorney, if so were there any changes suggested, and are u sure this signed waiver will release you from responsibility when brought into court? I am aware of Dan Fields commitment and devotion to educating and defending the window cleaner/builder/home owner. I am not trying to beat a dead horse. I have two attorneys looking at this waiver, in diff states, and I am just trying to gather as much info from men/women in the field. I am looking 4ward to any info and thanks ahead of time
I just got a new client that is a lawyer and she’ll be getting the waiver. I’ll get her opinion and let you know.
To answer your question Art, No. I have not had a lawyer look over my waiver.
I am comfortable with the waiver I use. I am unaware of any changes that could be made to it to be “bullet proof”. Such a waiver more then likely does not exist.
I use the sample waiver provided by Dan Fields on his website. If I understand correctly it’s been used and upheld in several different court cases.
I have also heard of window cleaners using a waiver and being held for negligence considering they claim they were professionals, knew that as they razored the glass they were dislodging fd, thus scratching the glass. Yet they continued.
I would agree with that ruling. If they knew that they were dislodging f.d. --thus scratching the glass-- and continued to do so, they should be held liable. Perhaps not 100% liable, but at least a portion.
It’s my practice that if I discover scratches being made my fd, I put the razor back in it’s holster and stop cleaning. I seek the builder/owner right away to determine how they would like to proceed.
Not trying too hard to play the Devil’s advocate here, but:
Most of the CCU’s I have had in the past three years have had more mortar and stucco scratches and other construction type imperfections than Fabricating Debris.
Don’t get me wrong, I have a waiver that every commercial account signs before begining service, and 90% of my residential customers sign it too, and I know how to watch for and detect the presence of fab debris, but I rarely find it on the glass I clean.
I use the same process as most where I wet scrub first, followed by a light scraping in areas of need, followed by a complete scrub with steel wool, and lastly a final scrub and squeegee.
I am not trying to be an ass here, but are you all having that much trouble, all the time, with fab debris?
I just see more scratches from a careless mason or brick layer than bad glass.
I have cleaned A LOT of such windows and I too have not seemed to have that much trouble with fab debris, as I stated in my post, it is careless construction crew leaving all of the crud that causes the need for scraping in the first place. However I don’t have very specialized equipment nor am I able to have the sun available at the right time, lower on the horizon all day … so, if I have to worry myself to death over it, about being liable, sued, court, etc., I opt not to do these windows at all. Too stressful.
It seems to be too logical, that no scraping at all would be needed if it were not for construction debris which should automatically be cause for the contractors to be held liable for their lousy and lazy work, not the cleaners.
Joie ~ N. CA
If you’re ever in my neck of the woods, stop on by. I could take you around town and show you all kinds of new buildings with fab. debris. We had one dealership that just had probably $100k worth of glass replaced from fab. debris.
I was like you for a while, I knew about fab. debris, but I did not notice it for a while. All of the sudden it was on almost every other new building I saw. I am not sure what causes this.
We still have a fair amount of scratches caused by morter and brick too, but it’s easy to distinguish those kind of scratches from fab. debris.