Yeah, I have learned this lesson a few years ago on a huge CCU I landed.
We scratched millions of dollars of glass, but had a waiver, so we were cool.
You just never know.
And yes, I said millions.
Good links steve! I have Dan’s site in my favorites and as a link on my website!
You, or your workers, didn’t scratch the glass Kevin…
The fabrication debris is what scratched the glass. 
Hey thanks for the great link, I guess I need to work up some sort of wavier. I know exactly what you guys are talking about now as there has been a house or two where I put in a brand new blade, scrubbed what look to be a pretty clean window and then scraped a little and heard that awful sound of grit on glass and of course there was some scratches. I could never figure out what that was all about since I couldnt see anything. And then go to the next window and no problems what so ever. So at first I thought it was the blade but then on the next window I knew the blade was fine.
It seems to have a distinct sound, so now when I hear that I stop right away and do not scrape anymore on a window with fabrication debris. Instead I give it a hand scrub with a soaked rag and that seems to do a good job in place of the scrapper for bird poop and stuff like that.
If the glass is part of new construction or remodel, for example, the builder or homeowner has legal recourse with their supplier. Right?
Squeaky,
You are right about the gritty sound. Sometimes you wont be able to hear it as well so beware. The most common places I have came in contact with it is:
Side lites : small window usually found near a front entry. Tempered.
Skylights : ( No need to explain this one.
Bathroom windows: Usually above Jacuzzi’s. Tempered.
Any window installed below 18" from the floor: Building code in US. Tempered.
FRENCH DOORS: These are the worst. Especially interior french doors. 9 out of 10 you’ll find it on these.
Like you mentioned in your post, one window was fine and the next one had the gritty feel to it. Always keep your guard up. I had a house full of doublehungs that the top had FD and the bottom didnt and vise versa.
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Sorry guys, I only do maintenance cleans, no CCU for me. Although I do have to clean up after painters from time to time. I will probably walk away from the next one if it’s a really bad paint removal job on tempered glass. My parting words will be “Your painter didn’t follow the GANA guidelines, they should have covered your glass. YOU have a very expensive problem to solve. Sorry but I can’t help you.” 
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PS
Sorry guys but I live in Massachusetts where the small business man is always at fault. I don’t trust the waivers. If you knowingly scratch the heck out of someones glass when the recommended cleaning guidelines say you should not use a scraper you are at fault, period. I don’t believe a piece of paper can save me when I should have known better. I walk away. Let someone else swing from the gallows.
Do you know of any wcer held liable when a waiver was in place in your state?
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]No. I only know carpet cleaners that have been to court. I have also been to more than a few carpet cleaning schools that advice us not to trust our waivers in court. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Around here the liberal courts usually rule in favor of the victim. It has become politically correct to rule against the business man and in favor of the victim. It seems like the business man is being viewed as a criminal more and more these days. My best friend has a fairly large carpet cleaning company and he is very frustrated with the courts. His waivers don’t hold any weight in court. I’m not taking any chances. I have the waiver signed and I only use steel wool and a one inch razor. (Recommended tools on the GANA website) If the situation requires heavy pressure and scraping I educate the customer and walk away. I really don’t trust my waiver to hold much weight in court. I also do not trust what my customer says. They usually change their minds, later on, when things get ugly in court.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I’m sorry Tony. 
I’m not trying to aggravate you. I have read many of your posts on fabricating debris, here and elsewhere. You are a very articulate and a bright guy in my opinion. I understand that the fabricating debris is the problem, not the razor. But, I think if we scrape glass that should not be scraped and it scratches we are in the wrong, period! In my opinion we have willfully destroyed our customer’s property. Perhaps having a piece of paper signed can save your butt in your state, but I have heard that the courts around here call it negligence. The poor customer usually doesn’t realize what the crafty business man in sheep’s clothing is having them sign. You are going to willfully scratch the customer’s glass and their signing a waiver makes it OK? The label on the glass says DO NOT USE A RAZOR and that is what it means, DO NOT USE A RAZOR. We are required by law to use alternative methods to protect the integrity of the customer’s property. If we do not follow the instructions on the label we are wrong, period![/FONT][/COLOR]
[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I know the alternative methods don’t really work and nobody seems to know exactly what they really are, but we are supposed to use them. Anything but a razor. [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I also know that some of the new methods are dangerous to our health and the window seals may fail. They are also extremely inefficient to use which costs our customers hundreds and sometimes even thousands of dollars. I am also fully aware that the results are frequently less than satisfactory. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I apologize to all for my rant, and especially Tony. You are highly respected by me. I am really really angry about this whole mess. GANA, the window cleaners and our customers all seem to be at the mercy of the fabricators. There doesn’t seem to be much we can do about this problem. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I will educate my customer and I simply walk away. If the fabricating debris makes it impossible to clean the heavy debris off the glass safely I guess the glass is uncleanable. What can I say? 
I live in New England. Lots of old property around here and lots of old glass for me to clean. LET SOMEONE ELSE SWING! [/FONT][/COLOR]
[SIZE=3]It should be a crime to sell glass with fabricating debris on it![/SIZE]
Kevin,
I think I know the place you are talking about unless there are 2 huge Audi dealerships ready for cleaning right now. I passed just because the place is ridiculous. Interesting to hear how they reacted to the waiver.
Mike I feel your frustration! I try not to take anything to personally if I can help it. The no scrape sticker is a joke. It isn’t (in my opinion) worth the glue and paper it’s made w/ for one reason - they don’t put it on annealed glass. Why? They know they are producing a defective product and they want someone else held responsible.
Alternative methods are also something your company can be held responsible for. If the harsh chemicals damage the IG seals then your on the hook for a replacement because the IG manufacturer warns against it.
So now we have an interesting situation - the builder didn’t cover the glass (against manufacturers warnings), the poor quality temperers didn’t wash the glass properly, and the IG manufacturer say harsh chemicals can damage the seals.
Do you do stain removal? If so do you get a waiver signed? I would for just these scenarios. Would that mean you were intentionally damaging the customers glass? No, just trying to make the best of a bad situation. It’s the same w/ FD, the stuff is defective. The customer can have us clean it or they can replace it.
Years ago I arrived on a job to do a quote for a large new construction job that was oversprayed big time. Most of the glass (Im talking glass the size of a double car garage doors) was oversprayed with cedar stain. To beat all, most of it was facing the west. I tested several of the panes and the were loaded with FD.
The painters sprayed the stain on during windy conditions. Every contractors vehicle got hit with overspray the day before and there was a HUGE Insurance settlement in the works (found this out later).
I called Pella to ask the service manager what I should use to remove the paint. He was totally clueless as to a method that would safely get it off. Pella will never recommend a razor BTW. He then added that it went from a window cleaning job to a window “restoration” job. There is a difference there. From then on, I have viewed ccu’s in this manner. If you cover your glass, I can help you. If its been neglected during the building process, well its a restoration job. Thats how I put it to builders that dont want to sign a waiver.
Steve
Or they could have us clean it and replace it. :eek:
I’d rather walk. I tell them that their painter, and the glass fabricators have put them in a very expensive situation that I would prefer not to be placed in the middle of. There is no solution to the problem except to replace the glass.
Oh. I am trying to tell every painter I meet to go to my web site and check out the links on fabricating debris. SO FAR THEY HAVE HAD NO INTEREST. It amazes me.
PS
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]When I worked at Fish the window cleaners were not allowed to carry a razor blade. It was a nation wide company policy. NO RAZOR BLADES. At the time I thought they were crazy. How do you get the tape of the door at a store? The answer, your thumb nail. Now I understand their dilemma. I would assume that Fish breaks out the razor blades on big CCU jobs. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I carry a 5 inch champion blade on my tool belt every day. I’m going to rethink that. Maybe I’ll leave it in the truck, for special jobs. I’ll use it on old 6x6 windows with combination storms. I used to hate them. Now they have a new appeal. No tempered glass. [/FONT][/COLOR]
Exactly!!! They love to pass the buck. I hate (careless) painters!
It’s a little bit evil but I’m kind of hopeing that I run into one of the painters that had no interest. I want to say I told you so. Walk away and leave them with a huge clean up job they can not complete without destroying their customers property.
PS
They won’t be able to call another window washer because the home owner will know exactly what’s going on.
[QUOTE=mdefiel;37677]Or they could have us clean it and replace it. :eek:
I’d rather walk. I tell them that their painter, and the glass fabricators have put them in a very expensive situation that I would prefer not to be placed in the middle of. There is no solution to the problem except to replace the glass.[QUOTE]
But which glass Mike? Remember we are talking about a problem that doesn’t affect every piece of tempered. How will you know which is good and which is bad? Simple answer is you can’t - no one can. Also some temperers have good housekeeping procedures and put out a quality product. With the waiver you can clean the glass and if a situation arises then they can be informed of their choices. I say if, because sometimes you can clean this stuff and not know if there was a problem. Not to mention sometimes you can run into heat strengthened glass that has no stamp - then what?
Sadly there is no one answer to the problem except to get a waiver signed (if you’re worried about it’s legality then have it checked by an attorney) every time.
Unfortunately to not be placed in the middle of this would mean not cleaning windows at all.
Thanks Tony.
[quote="“mistersqueegee,post:36,topic:3556”]
[FONT=Verdana]Your right it’s like walking through a mine field. I think I can have a waiver signed to cover my back on preexisting conditions. I can wash and squeegee with no trouble. If something needs a light scrub with a very fine steel wool pad or a short scrape with a safety razor I don’t see a problem. If the painters or some home remodelers trash the windows I will put the ball in their court and step away. [/FONT]
Now if we can just get everyone to agree that FD is a preexisting condition that will be a great step forward. I think the GANA promoted sticker does this very thing.
[FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]That’s funny, but I was referring to someone else having scratched the glass on a prior cleaning. The customer doesn’t realize their windows have been scratched until after I clean them. Maybe days later. I have a waiver signed and I never used a window cleaner’s razor. What do you think?[/FONT][/COLOR]
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