I definitely will, Justin.
No offense, Dejay, but this is either sarcasm or the most ignorant thing I’ve read this year.
Maybe you’re right Josh, and I really appreciate your thoughts. I don’t think I’m overthinking it though. To change my current standards is something that should be done thoughtfully. And to avoiding being accused of a Civil Rights Violation is something that deserves a bit of thought too.
I also think there’s more to it than just whether or not I liked the guy. For example, my current crew and myself are clean-shaven. If I let this guy in with a beard, I’ll have to explain to them why the change. I just don’t know if I want to start on that path without giving it some thought.
It seems familiar… what is it? I searched my computer and don’t have it anywhere…
The government has no business meddling in your dress standards. It is your business and you can set
the standards. I notice that there are quite a few people of every race that shave.
I am surprised that so many people here are so passive to government intrusion.
I guess you have been thoroughly brainwashed into a passive state.
Next they will require the beauty contests to accept ugly women.
The nanny state has gone way too far.
Who owns your business?
In the case he was telling us about we are talking about a health concern over why the man cannot shave to the skin. Not the fact that he is African -American. The question you should ask yourself is if you had a (white) employee who had a medical problem to the point he could not shave to the skin would you fire him for it? If your answer is Yes well that is still discrimination. The fact is there are many professionals that have beards. doctors lawyers, cops, medics, nurses, carpenters ,etc. Its all about grooming. But who are we to say. I’m also the guy who hires people with tattoos. I believe personality, work ethic, and experience, and qualifications, trump all else. I used to have a no visible tattoo policy until i met my guy Harrison. His personality got him the job and has won over my clients(he has a huge skull and crossbones on his throat!). I’m glad I gave him a chance dispite the tats. He has been the best employee I have ever had. I wish I would have met him when I had my construction company 10 years ago!
So my point is you make the rules and you have the right to break them so just go with your gut. If you think the man will be a good fit in your company and make you money then hire him.If not don’t.
If I don’t want the tatoos that is up to me. If I lose a good employee that is my loss but that is my choice.
We discriminate in thousands of ways. That is our basic right as a human being. We are nor required to accept
everything in the world. We have a basic right to reject things, and standards of appearance for our business is one of those things
we have a right to use discrimination in. There are other businesses that have other standards.
If you can be convinced that your car is not yours, I can take it away from
you. That is what is happening with the loss of our business autonomy.
We have been dumbed down by our authorities to the point that we can be told what to do by the king’s henchmen.
There is nothing good about it. It is just a loss of individual freedom.
For those who couldn’t understand the above, he basically just said “No matter what the problem is… it’s all the dam liberal’s fault!”
also known as a political thread hijacking.
It is interesting how different industries are held to different standards per the Govt. There is no beard police in window cleaning, per say. But in Agriculture there is. My old business, was actually fined and cited by the County during an inspection in which the handler of chemicals, an applicator had a goatee and partial beard. It’s a no no. We had pressed him to shave it off for years, it took the citation for it to happen. Now, if you have an employee or even yourself in a situation where you are violating the use instructions (use a respirator in an enclosed space or poorly ventilated area) of said product. THEN, yes, if something were to happen to that employee, to cause them to be sick due to a non-proper fitted respirator. You could be fined…and sued. Fined by Osha, the state, the County, and lawyers after the employee hires one, due to the possible sickness and or future illness that may have been caused by or arrised out of a non properly fitted safety device for the employee. In our business, we had to send any employee who was to wear a respirator to the Dr. for a physical evaluation, could he even wear one? Heart issues, blood pressure, lung issues, asthma like were factors, as well as facial hair. Fit testing had to be documented on a yearly basis. It was a paper chase and expensive, but necessary. It is something that was brought up during pre employement, not after. It is something to consider regardless of how one looks or how you want your employees to look, it goes beyond that.
Michael, according to the EEOC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) you have to have 15 employees before this law applies to your company.
See here: Coverage of Business/Private Employers
Just sayin’…
I shave every other day. To shave everyday would result in a rash on my neck that looks like a whole bunch of pimples. It’s been that way since I was a teen and I’m now 43. I,m fair hair so I can easily get away with skipping a day and I still get told by some clients that they appreciate that I’m clean cut. I’m sure that it is the whole package that I present to them (general appearance, personality, care/respect for their home in how I work) that gives them an overall impression of me.
Image is everything. If you want people to think you’re a thug dress like a thug!
Just making sure everyone knows my post was a joke. I know a guy in my market who’s guys look like they are out on a work release program. He thinks they look clean cut. What do I know?
Not to hijak the thread or anything but we had an employee who decided to get “thug life” tattooed on his arm. And of course he spelt it wrong and it said “tug Life”
He is no longer with us 
“You’re fired.”
“Why, boss?”
“well, first because it’s now a documented fact that you’re an idiot. And second because we don’t want to keep you from your dreams of being a tug boat operator someday.”
The 8th Circuit Court of Appeals is not the final word. The Supreme Court overturns Appellate Court decisions regularly and they are the final word. So your response to my post is invalid to me.
Every employer discriminates every time they have a job opening where more than 1 person submits an application. Any time you choose one person over another, you discriminate.
That is why I said to make your decision, notify the other candidates out of respect because many employers do not even respond anymore, and do not disclose to anyone how you came to your decision.
Here is a novel idea for you to consider. Just because someone asks you a question, doesn’t mean you have to answer it.
The court that ruled that way must have been liberal and you know it. You recognized it.
I didn’t use the word. No hijacking necessary. Facts are facts.
This is good stuff. I reply by email thanking each applicant for their time and tell them I will keep their resume on file.
Have any of you WCRA members seen this before?
GROOMING STANDARDS
- Grooming is very important for the first impression of a client. We are in the image business. Our clients CARE HOW THINGS LOOK, who else would pay hundreds of dollars to have their home windows cleaned? People need to feel very comfortable with a person that they will bring into every room of their home. If you make a good first impression, the homeowner will not be suspicious of you and your work. Our general guidelines for hair are short and clean cut looking.
Health and safety usually trumps that issue. My former business, in which respirators and their use were required, meant that you are required to be clean shaven. If respirators are required for chemical applicationes in your handbook, then case closed.
Nice. Using the WCRA guidelines to defend racial discrimination.
Respirators? Yeah, window cleaners use them so much that you really can’t hire this guy… sure
I don’t care if I catch some flak, but these justifications are pretty thin. If someone can’t shave because of genetic reasons having to do with race you are violating the law by using this as a reason to not hire.
Hey Jesse (greenj26),
There is no such thing as WCRA guidelines, but their are forms and items made available to WCRA members from others who have put them together in the past. I certainly am not defending racial discrimination. In fact my wife is African American. I was simply showing something that was available that was in fact written, (probably unknowingly) which if used could get someone into trouble. That’s why I mentioned that all borrowed documents should be reviewed by an Attorney and/or Human Resources person in order to avoid any type of discrimination.
[COLOR=“red”]Coverage of Business/Private Employers
General Coverage
If a complaint against a business (or some other private employer) involves race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information, the business is covered by the laws we enforce if it has 15 or more employees who worked for the employer for at least twenty calendar weeks (in this year or last).
Age Discrimination and Coverage
If a complaint involves age discrimination, the business is covered by the laws we enforce if it has 20 or more employees who worked for the company for at least twenty calendar weeks (in this year or last).
Equal Pay Act and Coverage
Virtually all employers are covered by the Equal Pay Act (EPA), which makes it illegal to pay different wages to men and women if they perform substantially equal work in the same workplace.
Deciding Coverage of Business/Private Employers
Figuring out whether or not an employer is covered can be complicated. If you aren’t sure about whether coverage exists, you should contact one of our field offices as soon as possible so we can make that decision. It is also important to keep in mind that, if an employer is not covered by the laws we enforce, the employer still may be covered by a state or local anti-discrimination law. If it is, we can refer you to the state or local agency that enforces that law.
[/COLOR]
Well there you go 6/160, Streakless-Shawn put out what the EEOC can and or won’t do so your not tied down by this non-discriminatory standard of the EEOC !
Good search results Shawn…
Now that don’t mean he can’t take you to civil court and prove that your being discriminatory by the EEOC upper standards and the civil rights court decision…Based on probable cause, so you still can be sued if he were to know why he was over shot for the position ! Only though if you based his non shaving on his race , if it applies to everyone whatever race they are then your not basing it on race but hair on who’s ever face !
Now my personal opinion is yes clean cut is a good standard both a trimmed goatee and mustache, side burn is still clean cut if the rest of the skin is still shaved, in a lot of cases such a style makes a guy kinda good looking. I would not have a problem with this, mustaches or goatees , sideburns that are trimmed !
Now if a guy is unshaven for 4 or 5 days and lookin kinda of ronchy well that may be a bit nasty to a customer and I would tell them I need them to shave, that also includes dirty hole filled clothes or shirts that say bad things ! When we go into offices or a persons home we need to look clean and professional. Tattoos aren’t unprofessional but if your whole body and face are tattooed well you won’t be working for me,but a few tattoos, even on the neck is no problem. I think tattoos are silly so I’ll never get one, nor an earring, but what other people do is their decision it has become the norm !
I think if a guy looks like Charles Manson people are going to have a little problem, if we look like a clown this will also cause a problem,if we smell from not showering this is a problem…
I shaved yesterday I’m not going to shave today. If you don’t want guys with beards or goatees , mustaches or unshaven for a day or two that’s your call as a business owner ! Like other post here have said good worker are sometimes hard to come by, I’m more apt to let a guy go if they don’t hustle or they don’t fellow standard operating procedures, or are lambastic to you or fellow employees and or customers, if their liers, and or thieves…Not following direction by the foreman or supervisor.
I think what B-Man said is good advise you don’t need to divulge your reasoning as to why you’re not hiring ! If your deciding based on bigotry well that’s a personal issue that a person needs to realize about themselves and then change but I don’t see you being dicriminatory or being a bigot at least not by definition toward others as is said here Discrimination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia or you actions, you just want the guys shaved…
But as in # 3 and #4 here in this dictionary you seem to be Discrimination | Define Discrimination at Dictionary.com, and so what your doing is making a fine distinctions or differentiating like in color of a shirt or hair on the face or tattoos on the body, and doing so is not being a bigot as some are !!!
Bigot (disambiguation) - Wikipedia
Danges / Q-pinion
