The GANA guidelines for cleaning tempered glass, are a big concern for me. I live in a very liberal state where the courts tend to view the business as the villain and the customer as the poor victim. I have been told that a glass waiver may not always hold up in court. A liberal judge could say I ignored the GANA guide lines and acted in an unprofessional manner. I should know better than to scrape a customers tempered glass with a razor.
I have been thinking about following the GANA guide lines and using only very fine steel wool. Of course I would charge accordingly. I have heard that it can take up to 5 or 10 times longer to remove paint from a window with steel wool instead of a 6 inch razor.
THIS IS MY QUESTION FOR THE GROUP
[B]In a typical NEW house 2,500 to 5,000 square feet how many tempered glass windows would there be? [/B]Could all the windows be tempered or just a few around door ways and near the floor? If all the windows are tempered the price would be way too high ($10-$20 extra per window?) but if it’s only five or ten windows and a couple doors it might be feasible to use steel wool just to be safe. What do you think?
I clean many homes where all windows are tempered.
If you’ve already convinced yourself that using a waiver is too risky, you’ll need to price according to your hourly goal, with each job evaluated on its own merits.
Have you discussed you waiver fear with Dan Fields directly? You might be surprised…
I answered some of this in the suggestion sub forum. All I’d add here is what Larry already poitned out - Call Dan and get his input before making any decision.
Around here Mike, it depends on the contractor, Its standard for all doors and any glass thats below 3ft to be tempered, some builders will go with tempered everywhere and others will just do whats code
I have seen windows where the bottom sash is tempered and the top is not,
Most will have a temperers stamp in one of the corners of the pane, but they can be gotten special order without the stamp
Its hit or miss really so your best bet is to ask the site supervisor, and get it in writing along with your waiver, and carefully scrape and listen for the sound of fab debris on each pane
Thanks. I thought you guys, with more experience than me, might say exactly what you’re saying. Well I’m till looking forward to other peoples feed back.
“Every piece of glass in the house!” … Now I’m really angry with GANA. Who do they think is going to pay for the guide line methods to be performed on every piece of glass.
Most of the scraping I do is for paint removal. I don’t plan on getting into CCU. Is it easy to tell the difference between lots of paint overspray popping off the glass and fabricating debris popping. I usually take a second swipe with the blade after the paint is gone to listen for fabricating debris, but then it would be to late, right? The glass would be scratched.
I usually charge $1-$2 for paint scraping per pane. That’s about $50-$100 for a house with 25 DH windows. I have heard that the GANA guide lines on their web site can take up to 10 times longer than scraping. Is that right?
I know some guys were talking about needing to charge 5 times more to use “alternative methods” for debris removal. I could easily see it taking 10 times as long not using the scraper.
Something else to think about Mike is that steel wool can dislodge fab debris also. So you would be back to square one. Now that leaves chemicals to take the stuff off. How much exposure to harsh chemicals are you willing to risk? How about the homeowner? These are questions GANA doesn’t answer or even care about. They are just trying to avoid dealing w/ the issue!:mad:
Yes they are failing to deal with the issue. What I do is have them sign a waiver. The waiver covers me if I don’ t notice any fab debris and scratch a window or two or three. Now if I do know for sure that there is fab debris and it’s scratching the glass, I immediatley stop. To continue on despite the waiver after knowledge of fab debris present can be deemed negligance. Dan Fields holds this view as well.
If I have to use other methods I charge and charge accordingly, and it WILL be over my hourly rate. If the customer doesn’t want to pay then I won’ t do it. It’s unfortunate because GANA makes the end user suffer the home owner.
I use chemicals. But Im used to dealing with them. I finished wood for 3 years…The best thing to do is inform inform inform! The customer has to know the issue in as clear a way as possible.
I agree - information is vital. Especially since GANA has taken to publishing their propaganda so actively. We need to be to be as active making sure the truth about fabricating debris gets out there. Waivers are just one important part of the educational process.
I personally show them the bulletin on fab debris explaining the whole thing. In fact they get a personal copy. Then I present the waiver. Did I send you a Fab Debris bulletin? If not you will get one at the Regional this Saturday.
Informing the customer and builder is the best method. Of course whether you want to use alt methods is on you. I have not done so personally. If I was to like I said I will have to be paid well and over my hourly rate. You do have to be careful with chemicals as these may weaken the rubber seals. Marvin claims to make a chemical that they make that is “Safe”. Who knows.
I discuss the heat-strengthened glass manufacturing process and the possible fabricating debris issues related to it. I then relate personal experience with scraper use regarding CCU and maintenance cleaning, present the AUWC Bulletin – Heat Treated Glass Quality Issues: Scrapers & Fabricating Debris (4/10/07), make certain they understand everything, and are prepared to sign the waiver.
What got me started on this topic was a comment Joel Andrews said on his training video Super Speed Window Cleaning. He said sometimes you can clean 10 tempered glass windows in a row with no problems, then on the 11th one you hear scraaaaatch scraaaatch. “You know what that sound is? The sound of you loosing your job.” Then he goes into using only steel wool on tempered glass. So I’m thinking there must be a middle ground.
I try to avoid black and white thinking. I try to listen to everybody. This way I can make better decisions. So far there is some really valuable feed back from the voice of experience. Some people in our industry think Dan Fields is all wrong, maybe they are all wrong.
I agree w/ Larry the video is in all likelihood in need of an update. I found the same to be true of Johnny Orsini’s e-book. They are from an time when this problem was just appearing and so didn’t have enough education themselves to speak intelligently on the subject.
As for Dan - you won’t find an individual w/ more knowledge on this problem and those that think he’s off base are falling for GANA propaganda. Read all the wcing idustry releases on this subject and watch Dan’s DVD on fab debris and then you’ll understand the issue very clearly.
I know I’ve already stated this but since Mr. Andrews video mentions it, steel wool isn’t a way to avoid dealing w/ fab debris scratches. It will dislodge fab debris. Maybe not as many pieces but it still happens. Just a heads up Mike.
