Low E glass cleaning

Residential
21

Alright. So tell us about the “metal mark on hardcoat.”

No more questions.
No more cryptic “well if you search for this, and find that, and dig through this, and breakdown the other thing…”

  • Start talking about the metal marks on hardcoat.
  • Nothing more. Tell us about it.

And do NOT go all “come to my picnic to find out” on me.
Or ask any more questions.- If you do, you will be my first official “ignore.”

Start talking, because your picnic looks to be about the same as a Don Rickles show… getting beat around by the host, and paying for it.

Now, tell us all about the metal marks on hardcoat.

“Metal marks on hardcoat” - GO!

1 Like
22

Um, I’ll ask questions if I feel like it - but thanks for your interest.

I notice Caleb liked your rant - so I think it’s safe to assume neither of you are aware of how metal marks occur on hardcoat.
I dunno how you can read the Pella link Caleb posted and not see the reference to marks that are not scratches.
And maybe you didn’t realize, but the Cape Cod guy who posted is aware of the metal marks problem, and he’s picked up on the fact that someone recommended Barkeeper’s Friend Copper Glow to remove them.

I think I’ve said this before - it doesn’t seem so cryptic to me:
Metal marks occur on hardcoat low-e when scrapers are used, as some of the metal gets rubbed off by the abrasive coating, leaving a gray mark.

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I took this photo with a smartphone microscope, like the ones I’m giving away at the Picnic.
The vertical dark area is a felt tip pen (Sharpie) line that was scraped away with a handheld #9 single edge blade.
The horizontal line is the thickest part of a metal mark left by the scraper.
(The mark is darkest, and easiest to see in that area.)

Granted it’s hard to tell exactly what you’re looking at here - particularly if you’re angry with the guy who posted it - but I think everyone can agree there is something in the top half of the picture.

That something is a thin film of metal - and I would be glad to try and answer questions about what you see there.
(Just please try to be as polite as I was the first few times I asked Caleb if he was aware of this problem.)

Also, I am on vacation, so I may be a little slow helping you - but there’s gotta be somebody here who’s run into hardcoat low-e and can tell you about their experience.
And if you don’t mind me dropping a name, Dan Feilds says he thinks this is going to be a bigger problem than fabricating debris.
You better believe he knows this is serious - so I hope that leads you to take it seriously, too.

If you’re not already aware of this issue, it’s likely because you haven’t yet run into a lot of hardcoat low-e.
That’s going to change, because codes are coming on that demand a big increase in the efficiency of residential windows.
That is why we did the article in American Window Cleaner Magazine, and for people who are curious to learn more - that’s why I’ve arranged a hands-on low-e glass workshop at the Picnic - July 26, at Olympia Resort here in Oconomowoc.

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23

Attached is some interesting reading from Pilkington. It touches on the value of applying hardcoat low-e to the #4 surface and gives us good technical data on why we may begin to see this setup more in the field going forward.

Pages 2 and 3 are of note, as that’s where you’ll see the data and reasoning behind applying low e not only the #2 surface, but also the exposed #4 surface (the inside exposed pane on an IG window).

Page 5, under the topic “IG fabrication” shares some useful info for fabricators (which, by extension has value for us window cleaners) regarding cleaning methods, labeling, the effect of press equipment and roller contact etc to exposed hardcoat low e.

The end of the document links us to pilkington’s ATS bulletin #143 for specific instruction on cleaning hardcoat low-e surfaces. This document is also attached.

Beware, this isn’t all light reading. I didn’t understand some of it on my first read through. But the stuff that’s most relevant to window cleaners is pretty easy to pick out.

http://www.pilkington.com/resources/ats138dmultiplelowecoatingsinig20130115.pdf

http://www.pilkington.com/resources/ats143handcleaningloweandsolare20130114.pdf

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24

One other note- if you’ve ever taken apart a pella storm window or cleaned the in-between surfaces on the designer series (the ones where the blinds are in between the panes) then you’ve very likely come across hardcoat low-e.

You probably already knew it though. It feels wrong, it makes your squeegee drag. And of course, you shouldn’t scrape it.

25

[MENTION=14804]Gary Mauer[/MENTION] [MENTION=7230]c_wininger[/MENTION] isn’t it also true you should not use abrasives like steel or bronze wool on hardcoat. And Gary are you saying that basically the new standards for window manufacturers are going to mean units like the inside of a pella take apart are going to become more common on exterior or exposed glass surfaces?

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26

I read through the PDF’s.

I have not come across hardcoat as far as I know yet. Then again, I do not scrape a lot either.

I am left with bewilderment with glass manufactures. We have issues with tempered glass debris to contend with. Now we have a whole nother’ issue with hardcoat.
What I am having a hard time understanding, is WHY they keep making glass coatings, and the glass debris issue, and fail to address a good way for the window cleaners to do their job quickly and efficiently. I am not about to clean windows with paper towels, and vinegar and water.

WFP’s have their place, but you can’t totally replace nose to glass.

27

perhaps a better question to ask is “why would they bother?”

there is no incentive. window cleaners as an industry have failed miserably in their attempts to gain any leverage or credibility with manufacturers when it comes to enacting changes in manufacturing methods. there is a massive disconnect between end users and cleaners when it comes to choosing wisely at time of purchase. that will not go away any time soon.

so, your next best option is to deal with what’s in the field as safely, efficiently and effectively as possible while at the same time obviating yourself from as much assumed risk as possible.

28

Then maybe it’s time for window cleaning representatives to step up, and call out glass manufactures. Time to scream from the roof tops, that they are screwing buyers making glass with these issues. They should explain the problems with tempered glass manufacturing and the issues it causes when a window must be scraped.
Explain as well, how this hardcoat makes it difficult to use normal methods (or impossible) and how this will effect buyers when they need to hire someone to clean the windows.

The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

29

^ dude, you are kind of late to the party, so i’ll cut you some slack. that exact statement has been made over and over for going on 20 years. and guess where we are?.. square one. let it go. trust me.

oh, and maybe read Dr. Seuss’ “Horton hears a Who” to get a frame of reference for what you’re suggesting.

30

You asked, why should they bother… Give them a reason.

You can think my suggestion seems stupid, or dumb, but that’s that unabashed truth. It is in the cleaner’s best interest. It is in the distributor’s best interest. It is in the squeegee manufactures’ best interest. Unless someone starts the fire, it just isn’t gonna get press. No press, soon enough, all that money everyone likes receiving will go away, and our industry will no longer be.

Maybe car manufactures should start mounting your oil filter next to your heater core. Makes about as much sense.

31

right on,bro! i like your attitude. Go for it, you have my support.

32

I work at saying what I mean, so you don’t have to guess what I’m up to - unlike the guy who started this thread and waited until the 24th message to even drop a hint about why he refuses to discuss metal marks.

I am on a mission to learn more about what happens when you scrape or use metal wools. It would appear that not all room facing low-e coatings get marked as easily as others. I want to know more about how to remove metal marks. The glass literature already touches on how to remove marks - I kinda think that before too long the scratch removal people are going to be all over this topic.

Caleb is clearly shunning me and stonewalling the topic of metal marks, so it’s not looking like we’ll get very far talking about it here.
Caleb snickers at the instructions provided by window manufacturers, and says you should use your own judgment - but then he says “everyone knows you shouldn’t scrape”. I guess he wants you to think for yourself, except when he tells you to think like him.

As for Pella, I did say more glass with room facing coatings is on the way - but unlike Caleb, I don’t think Pella is going to be using the same coating. It appears Pella is going forward with a different coating for room-facing applications than the old hardcoat that was used inside. Pella seems to be saying similar methods can be used to remove metal marks, and apparently this new coating (SunDefense) is easier to lean, but I’ve heard it’s is easier to mark than the old hardcoat. I’m curious about stuff like that.

33

i was thinking about this situation this afternoon, and i arrived at a conclusion- as manufacturing standards and coating strategies change in the industry, it’s going to become more and more important that we educated window cleaners stay abreast of what’s going on.

it’s pretty clear that we cant count on manufacturers to reach out to us with specific, consistent instruction on cleaning methods when it comes to the high-tech coatings they now use, and will continue to use in greater measure going forward. so, as unfair as it may seem, it’s on us to do the digging, the research and to put in the hustle necessary to stay on top of it.

so let’s say you’ve seen countless improperly assembled softcoat low-e coated windows in your 20 years of experience. and let’s say you’ve cleaned thousands of hardcoat low-e panes. and let’s say you know all about hardcoat abrading metal (such as scraper material), and you are well aware of the now ancient recommended solutions involving polishing compounds like Bar Keepers Friend…

in the end, so what? this is information that’s been in front of your nose for over a decade, if you’ve cared to look. however, the industry is changing.

we have no voice, as cleaners, when it comes to manufacturing guidelines (despite what various “associations” and “networks” may try to tell you). so ask yourself- “what can i do to help my business?”… “how can i continue to turn a healthy profit in the face on an evolving industry?” " how can I keep my valuable employees busy and productive, despite the challenges they face in the field?" “how can i minimize risk even as the potential for disaster increases?”

the answer is simple. [B]educate yourself[/B]. if that means turning to a google search, a six pack, and some microwave popcorn for a few hours, then so be it. It’s basically the wild west out here. there is no reliable resource other that what we make for ourselves. hopefully, you have a place turn to for reliable information, free of agenda or ego.

why do you think the WCRA has no official stance on:
-fabricating debris
-low-e glass cleaning practices
-scraper usage or lack thereof

?

My guess is this: because, basically, there’s enough anecdotal info out there for you to do a pretty good job of covering these bases on your own. and obsessing over these issues [B]will not help you grow your business, make you more money, or make your life easier as an owner.[/B]

And those things are what the WCRA is all about. isnt that why you started your business in the first place? to have ultimate control over your time and energy, to make more money, to provide meaningful employment to others you care about? i’m pretty sure it wasn’t in an effort to crusade against “the man” in the glass factory. if so, well, i’m sorry if my presumption offends you.

that’s why i love WCRA. real window cleaners helping real window cleaners with real info. no agendas, no egos, just squeegee slingers helping one another out.

34

^ got a little off-topic there, sorry.

here’s some basic info on the differences between hardcoat and softcoat low-e (i’ve learned this over the last few days, just poking around on the internet. i think i checked my facts pretty good, but i may be off on some of this. i’m not a scientist. if you see anything that appears wrong, let me know and i’ll revise it.)

[B]Softcoat low e (also called “sputtered” or “MSVD” glass)[/B]

this type of coating is applied in a vacuum chamber and is deposited on the surface of the glass. because it’s not a fused, or permanent part of the glass, it’s more delicate. it’s also fragile because the coatings are designed with the idea that the surface will never be exposed to handling or outside atmosphere.

because it’s assumed that this coating will be protected at all times, manufacturers are able to play with the composition of the coatings more, using a broader range of molecules. this results in the efficiency of softcoat low-e often being higher than that of hardcoat.

the drawback is that, if the coating ever is exposed, it will almost immediately begin to oxidize or rust. that’s why when you see an improperly manufactured window with sputtered low-e exposed, it will often look sort of blotchy or rusty.

manufacturers have been working feverishly to increase the durability of softcoat so that it can be used in more applications, including exposed surfaces- this is (from what i can tell) because it’s more efficient in many applications than hardcoat (ie., it usually has a lower solar heat gain efficiency).

[B]Hardcoat low e (also called pyrolytic glass)[/B]

Hardcoat is created differently than softcoat, in that the coating is actually bonded, or fused to the surface of the glass while the glass is still in a semi-fluid state. this makes the coating a permanent part of the glass, greatly enhancing it’s durability. That makes it much more suitable to situations where the low-e side will be exposed. it’s also easier to manufacture.

the drawback to hardcoat low-e is that it’s usually less efficient than softcoat. this is because a narrower range of chemical compositions can be used, due to durability concerns.

interestingly, it appears that the gap between hardcoat efficiency and it’s softcoat counterparts is closing. manufacturers have been successful at improving hardcoat low e significantly over the years, so the difference in efficiency isn’t nearly what it once was.

35

In your previous message, you ripped on everyone who’s known about it for years when you said, “in the end, so what? this is information that’s been in front of your nose for over a decade, if you’ve cared to look.”

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Here are some photos of insulated glass windows in a condition you may have come across before. They look strange, don’t they? There are clearly visible stains that have a metallic look.

These windows have failed seals. What you are seeing is most likely the soft coat low-e coating on either surface 2 or surface 3, reacting with the outside atmosphere. The metals used to make up softcoat low-e (silver, zinc, tin, etc.) have begun to oxidize. Even though these coatings are only molecules thick, there is enough material on the glass to make it visible when it reacts to moisture, oxygen etc from the outside air.

so if you see windows with aberrations like these out in the field, it’s a good chance that’s what you are seeing. If the IG window has been improperly assembled, you can even see these stains on the #1 or #4 surface, where it’s even more obvious.

of course, without lab testing, it’s impossible to say exactly what is causing these distortions. But we can make a pretty good educated guess when we know how IG windows are fabricated designed.

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1 Like
37

“Gospel”

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38

This has been an interesting and informative thread.
Gary, for years you and Dan Fields have been leaders in our industry in identifying potential liability issues, and I’m sure that most of us that are aware of all the work you have put in, are grateful and have a lot of respect for you. However, it seems to me that Caleb started this thread with the intention of providing helpful information, not to withhold, or to manipulate it, and I, for one, am grateful to him for taking the time and effort to do so.
It also occurs to me that everyone’s interests would be best served if we attacked the problem together (as I believe Caleb is attempting to do), rather than attacking one another’s motives.

2 Likes
39

Those are great pictures.

40

I_ am _doing a construction clean on a high-end residential, lots of different glass in this house.
A few big picture windows are AGNORA glass. When I started cleaning INSIDE (surface4) I noticed immediately that squeegee doesn’t glide at all and when I removed a sticker and plaster specks with steelwool I was leaving a shade-like purple-greyish stain.
Is that what the sotfcoat?

Defective glass or normal?

Instructions don’t say much - mild soap, no sharp objects…
I figured there’s some kind of reaction with metal (steelwool and small blade to lift sticker edge).
So, on next window I cleaned without metal - plastic card to remove sticker and denatured alcohol on a worn soft white pad to remove sticker residue - no stains.
I haven’t tried anything on the stain from first sticker, has anyone removed that kind of stain successfully?