WCN & Cliff Monroe

Is anybody reading the recent discussion on Window Cleaning Network about Fab. Debris? Cliff Monroe with Arch Aluminum and Glass Co. Inc, also chairman for GANA’s “Educational Subcommittee”, is posting and answering questions regarding Fab. Debris.

The past statements that have been made sure have been interesting. I wonder how much longer this will all go on?

Hey Micah… I don’t subscribe to world but a WC friend of mine forwarded it over to me… Definitely interesting stuff… I wonder if his company knows hes posting there…

So is that your dad or brother posting in that thread? When you started posting here I knew your name sounded familiar from somewhere.

Not to get off topic… but that’s def a good thread to watch,

Yep Chris, Darryl is my Dad.

I can understand why you’re not subscribed to the network. I wonder if you can read the post through the “archives” area on the website? It may only be updated monthly or something.

Interesting? Yeah…if Cliff replied with some “substance”! Typical rhetoric Bull$hit as usual.Notice he “Cliff” has been quiet as a little church mouse since Dan Fields Blasted him:D

I wasn’t expecting much to be honest,i do keep a flicker of hope that something good will come but…dealing with this as long as i have wears you down.

Quite obvious by the replies from some the feeling is mutual;)

What was that quote: - “out of the frying pan…into the fire.” I’ve heard that Arch is probably the worse glass out there. You gotta give the Cliff guy credit - for the nerve of facing his demons.

Craig… why do you think he started participating?

Cliff has been a member & participates every now & then.My guess why he’s surfacing again to try some of GANA’s “new” rhetoric & no doubt start/make arguments to see if we have answers. I want to see him back himself into a corner.

Another thought is…to feel us out & possibly (that’s a BIG maybe) try & have some decent discussion but…don’t look like that will take place.

Just for the record Arch aluminum & glass isn’t as bad as others quite obvious by Dan referring OPUS to Arch.

So…in the meantime we’ll sit back see what materializes??:rolleyes: As for Karl’s reply yeah…that’s like walking into the snake den!

Snake Den - yeah, I always get the wrong analogy :o
I seem to remember someone posting the Arch logo - with the replies being mainly for the worse. I don’t know if my email problems will let me back on - I’ve not tried. But before I had troubles I think Gary turned his filter into a 2 angstrom unit. It was the RO of filters.

Craig… Do you feel the situation with him is being handled properly?

Has anyone ever actually really tried to make show him OUR side of this in a constructive environment?

Excuse me if this has been happening … im just not sure I was forwarded everything related to this conversation.

I believe it was my Dad who posted the ARCH logo/tempering stamp. It’s kinda a hard logo to read unless you know what you’re looking for.

For some reason I’m not getting all of the emails/replies from Gary’s group. I missed Dan Field’s reply, I’ll have to try to find that.

Cliff stated in one of his replies:

“Fabricating debris as it is termed is not always present on heat treated glass,…”

I then asked him why there is fabricating debris on some heat treated glass, but not all. I obviously know the answer, but I’m curious to know how he would answer that question. He hasn’t responded, or at least I didn’t get the reply.

Scott Grandsard’s latest response (via new thread Subject line “Shame Cliff”) certainly didn’t assist in keeping the conversation ongoing and professional.

Agreed, that was a bit harsh of a response!

So was the tone of earlier posts by Scott (combative and bossy.)

I have seen Scott’s posts for years… Its not his usual tone.

Being a gambling man… I would bet he was recently burned by Fab debris.

Or someone personally close to him.

I agree. If he re-read the post presently, he may regret how he sounded.

I can understand how somebody would be a little frustrated with the whole situation though. The lack of care and responsibility from these fabricators has caused many problems for window cleaners, and ultimately, many dollars.

It’s not every day that you’re able to talk to somebody, albeit through email or online, who is closely related to the problem of Fab. Debris. That’s why we need to be professional and cool headed when talking or discussing the matter.

Handled properly…What’s properly? I think most who take part in this type of discussion ie: Fabricating Debris,Scrapers etc. there patience is running low partly because it’s usually the same old jargon.

I would personally like to see some constructive discussion ( as Lar reminded me) thx for that big guy;) but in all honesty the outcome always seems bleak!

Quite obvious by the replies today but…it could prove to be beneficial for both parties,provided we dont hammer them "Cliff & GANA too hard right out of the gate,trying to stay “Poised” is always easier said then done.

As we have witnessed on WCR, WCN, AUWC, NWCD, in life, etc., acting on the basis of low patience rarely assists in a productive dialogue.

This is a general observation, and is not directed toward any individual.

Regarding Scott…he’s one dude you dont really want to mess with too much;) He’s “Old School” and the guy’s been dealing with this crap a LONG time with our favorite Old Castle.

Whether he’s been burned …i dunno? I wouldn’t think so.

As for Chris’s one question about bringing them or Cliff into our environment being post construction cleaning oh…he knows and like many on the other side of the fence they are quite aware that the windows should be properly covered throughout the “entire phase” of construction.

As we all know that’s usually not the case.

When i was on my most recent IWCA board meeting had the opportunity to talk in depth with Paul Duffer(brilliant man) we both agreed the middlemen be it the various tradesmen need to be held accountable for there work & protection of the glass if there specific job/duty is being around the glass.

Dan Fields has also hit on that several times in the past as well but…we all see the outcome usually anything but.Only in a few rare occasions do you run across a builder who cares & is anal about those things.

It all comes down to having to challenge the ASTM standards so the amount of “Acceptable” glass fines/fabricating debris is minimal. We can’t expect perfection Dan has also said that many times but…if some of these offending fabricators were $fined$ of had to replace enough of there defective glass you can bet things would change in a hurry!

It all starts with having a good distance from where they belt seam the glass to the “glass washer” being maintained as well as the tempering oven & filters.

Don’t forget, even if the glass with fabricating debris were properly covered during construction, so that the glass didn’t even need a CCU, there would still be problems later on.

What happens when the vinyl graphics man comes out to replace a vinyl sign? Or the signs that car dealership paint on the window? These are all things that SHOULD be able to be done for years with no problem. If fabricating debris is on the windows, it can’t be.

If the glass that’s covered in fab. debris is properly protected once installed, who knows when it would be discovered that the glass is defective. Anybody from the window cleaner to the sign painter to the tint guy would be held wrongfully responsible.

The only solution is fabricators having a high standard of quality glass, without fabricating debris. Nothing else should be accepted.