Cheaper isn’t always better. You get what you pay for.
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Lol. I’m not mixing up anything. You seem to base your value on what it’s worth to you verses what it’s worth to the company owner subbing out the jobs. You act like your the only option a company has and without you their losing jobs and its just not the case.
If my guys are booked for the week I’m fill up next week or even the week after that and I’ll pay over time to complete the jobs before I sub it out at 70%.
I can also increase the price to those jobs a lose a few but keep the other jobss at a higher price point to cover the over time pay.
I can do some extra advertising and call my customer list and put enough jobs on the schedule to hire on.
I can even call a temp service (which I have uswd before) at just above minimum wage and hire a helper to wash the screens and tracks, help move furniture, go ahead and prep the windows etc.
There are other options. Last case scenario I’ll call the sub I use now and pay him 50% of the job and I know the job will be taken care of.
It’s not likely that I’m going to get 10 extra jobs all of a sudden that I can’t handle and if it happens I can cover it easily. If I know how to manage my company well I can easily handle a situation like that. Subbing out jobs is always my last option which is exactly why it’s only worth 50% of the job to me as a business owner. Plus I doubt your waiting around for me to call you with 10 jobs that you can fit in your schedule right away. You’ve got to know where your rent is coming from to. If it happens often enough for me to keep you as a sub then I can hire on and I no longer need you.
The point is your not going to tell me to pound sand because I’m never going to call you at 70%. I’ve alreadtmy told you pound sand by taking care of it myself and that’s the bottom line. Your not as valuable as you seem to think. If other guys want to pay you 70% that that’s their business. I would choose other options at that price rate.
I never said cheaper was better.
So you jace employees An subs ?
An yournemployees make 30% An your Subs get 50% ?
Just curious !
I currently don’t have employees. I have had employees in the past and will hire back on probably next year. I scaled back for personal reasons a few years ago. I am now ready to expand again and hire back on. I do use subs on occasion at 50% of the job. Both when I had employees and when a hire back on my target for labor is 30%. That doesn’t mean I will pay a percentage but that the rate has been and will be 30% of the gross revenue.
If I sub the job I sub it at 50%.
Well now that we settled that you would never pay a sub more then 50% , an I would never except less than 70% … that’s you & I
The OP said he is getting 80% an the majority of the people who posted in here never even mentioned 50%
So your wrong on the subject most self employed contractors with over head would never except 50%
You can call 20 Established window cleaners in your area tell them you have work for them @ 50%, An 80-90% of them will laugh at you . There is always someone desperate enough to take it , but it will be short lived the quality of work won’t be there.
I don’t even have to make those phone calls , Becuse I know already.
When someone has an overflow of work 2 things are done they either add some help , or look for subs. Adding help would be the first option. Why , Becuse if cource tlu can make more .
I don’t , but I would have no problem subbing my extra work to another prominent window cleaner an making 30% for work that woukd otherwise be wasted
30% is better than nothing , dont mix this up with my bsiusness im busy I’m making good money this is just xtra.
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You have no idea what your talking about. You seem to be hung up on trying to somehow make me wrong. 50% is standard in this area. I know because I have subbed and use subs. It doesn’t mean there are guys who won’t demand more or companies who won’t pay more. It simply means that from a sound business perspective I would not pay more.
What is funny to me is that you want to demand I am wrong but you have not even answered my question and challenge to you. What is the bennefit to me as a company owner to hire you as a sub at more than 50%? You seem to think I have to pay you more simply because you want it. I can hire subs all day at 50% and as I mentioned I have other options as well. So why do I need to be concerned with your demands at 70%?
It’s nit a good business perspective, An don’t confuse what a business is already making to what they could make by having someone do work that would otherwise dissapoear
I couont agree more. We can talk percentages all day. If I charge $20.00 per window why would any sub demand more when 50% is offered? It’s not the percentage as much as how much your pricing the jobs.
I don’t even have to use a percentage and tell my subs how much I am charging. I could pay them by the window. They give me a price per window and I charge the customer what I want and it’s none of the subs business what I charge my cusomters vs what he is getting.
Becuse when the phone rings an I see it’s you I’m happy , An I will pick it up.
Instead of like I’m sire it’s happened , An you can say it hasn’t , but you called An they didn’t pick up.
Like I said from the get go. Percentages means a hill of beans. Any smart sub is going. To want to look at the job first
An we know how to price , Becuse we are in the business
So we price the job at our price then we deducted the percentage that the sub should get An that’s the price that we should get
Let’s say I go to a house that you wan to sun me my price is 1000. So I’m thinkkng 700 is fair.
So you priced it at 1200. Well good for You. I don’t care I want 700. I’m good with that.
So moral of the story when you sub me work … make sure you price real high so you can make your 50%. Lol
Can’t talk anymore. I’m busy making my 100 % today.
The problem with that is there is only so much a customer is going to pay. That limits both of us to how much we are going to make. At some point in order to get the customer to pay more I will have to justify the value to the customer, which means if I want to charge more I will have to add more value. That means you will also have to work harder. Also there is only so much I am going to pay a sub. In other words you can ask me for $10.00 a window but I’m never going to pay a sub that much because I would be over paying for the service. I might charge the customer more but that doesn’t mean I’m going to pay you more.
Respectfully I don’t think you are reading my comments very carefully and listening to what I am saying. That’s not meant to be an insult. It just seems your only criteria for determining your value seems to be what you want to make instead of what it’s worth to me as your customer in comparison to my alternatives.
Economics teaches that the value of a product or service is determined in comparison the next best alternative. That means your service to me (a window cleaning sub) is valuable in comparison to my next best alternative. That means I look at other ways I can cover the same job (hiring another employee, paying overtime, using a temp service etc.) in comparison to subbing it to you and I compared the pros and cons to determine what it’s worth to me to use your services vs the other alternatives. That’s what determines your value to me. The only way in which your value is determined by you is by adjusting the bennefit you are offering me for your service. That’s why I gave you an opportunity to sell me your service at 70%. I asked you what is the bennefit to me to hire you vs my other alternatives and why it’s worth 70%?
50% is not just my opinion. It’s not just an arbitrary number. It’s based on comparing my alternatives to what your offering me in comparison. That means if you want more than 50% you have to communicate your value to me. What am I getting by using you vs hiring in or paying overtime?
It’s not just about what I want to say you or what you want to make. As a business owner I have to make desciaikns that make sense financially. My primary goal is to make money (it’s not the only goal but it is the primary goal). In order to be compaetitive I have to be frugal with every decision and I can’t afford to spend more for something that I can get for less.
If Ettore squeegee blades are $10.00 each and I can get and alternative rubber for $3.00 and it’s performance is comparable to Ettore rubber then it doesn’t make sense as a business owner for me to buy Ettore rubber. I would be throwing money away. It doesn’t matter how much Ettore wants for their rubber they will have to justify why their rubber is that much better for me than the alternative brand.
Your asking for a 30% mark up compared to what I can otherwise get. How does that make sense for me as a business owner? As a business owner I have to compare my alternatives to the value you offer. When I look at what an employee costs me vs a sub anything higher than 50% doesn’t make sense as a business owner.
It’s not about my opinion but about the numbers. Subs can demand more all day long but unless I just feel like giving money away it’s never going to happen.
I hope that makes sense.
Yes it does , but you keep talking about you you you you
Your forgetting I’m a business owner too , An what are you offering me ?
An yes the only reason I would consider a job at 30% less than what I normally make is because I can fit it in.
At 50% I would tske the next best alternative an either go knock on some doors , or take a day off. For me more than likely it’s he day off. Why Becuse I deserve it. I crushed it this week made plenty of money . So I don’t need what What a pane is offering , but if it was at 70%. I would be more than happy to do that job you can’t get to. Let me know it’s up to you.
What am I offering my 20 years of expertience. My insurance if something goes wrong. My Tools so yours don’t have to be used. Ect… Ect… theblist csn go on.
Ya see what I think you got going on is your paying guys 50 %. These guys prob don’t have health insurance payments , Advertising cost. Commercial vechile costs. So there happy with it. That’s good for you … I guess !
They don’t have any type of company period !
When they do they won’t answer your call.
Like I said call 20 Companies see what happens. I told you I know the answer around here already. They wiould laugh
Can I find a guy to do my work at 50%. Of course , but buyer be ware
I’ll take the other route an get a reputable company an Pay then what they deserve 70%
Now I’ve established a business realshiinship. When I call they will answer An now I have a good little thing going. Now if things get crazy I’ll fond another reputable company now I jace 2 companies that will like my calls.
My point seems to be going over your head.
Your value to me is compared employees. In other words tour replacing my labor. So in order for mebto determine tour value to me I am going to calculate my labor cost for employees plus a any other expenses that you remove from my plate to get the work done.
Since 30% for labor is standard business practice that means the other expenses you remove from my plate to get the job done has to exceed 20% of the gross sale. Health insurance is included in that 30% paid to employees as that isboart of employee compensation. So your expenses without health insurance would have to exceed 20% of gross sale to justify a higher value to me than 50%.
Does that make sense?
Unless you can give me another value factor that is worth something above 50% besides your expenses it doesn’t make sense for me to use a sub for more than 50%.
Does that make sense?
This isn’t about how I “feel” about you as a person. It is a business decision based on numbers. I have to justify the decision based on the numbers. If tour not giving me anything more than I can otherwise get with an employee for the same or less money then it doesn’t make sense for me to use a sub for more than 50%. It doesn’t matter ehatbother are doing or what the sub is demanding. If I can’t find a quality sub at 50% then it makes sense from and economics and revenue perspective for me to just hire an employee. Either way I am simply filling the role of labor in my business model. I don’t care if it’s a sub or an employee as long as the numbers make sense.
There are other reasons for considering a sub vs an employee but the positives and negatives tend to balance out.
Does that make sense.
I’m not attempting to insult you. I am trying to get you to see that the percentage and value of a sub is not determined by opinion but by the numbers. Tour value is determined by comparison to the value of an employee plus the expenses you cover for the cost of production. In our industrynthats not going to exceed 50% unless we use extreme examples like lift rentals etc.
I’m sorry to burst your bubble. I’m not intending to take the wind out of your sales. I don’t make the numbers. I just follow them just like everyone else has to in the end.
Honestly, I think there is some dishonesty about your answers, @whatapane.
Look, if you can hire a temp for peanuts, why are you even CONSIDERING a sub?
How much work are YOU taking on when a customer would tell you “Nah, I’m only going to pay you 50% of your price”?
IF you are hiring a LEGIT sub, then who in their right mind, is going to work for half? I’m sure your prices are not even top tier, so what you are paying subs is low ball. These guys are coming in with tools, a vehicle to get there, INSURANCE (so YOU are passing the liability), and all their overheads. You are going to hold them to the standard YOU set, but you want to pay them like a bucket bob…
I don’t care if you did that when you started. A legit business can’t afford to give away needed profits. If that were not the case, you would still be doing sub work…
My reaction to all you have said so far is:
I think you felt “used” when you started, so you think it’s ok and fair to do the same. While there is likely nothing illegal about what you are doing, I wouldn’t say it’s moral or really ethical. I have clients that I could “stick it to them” when it comes to pricing, but I’m not going to do that. I have a price for each service, and I don’t charge more because I think I can or because I am just particularly greedy like that. I demand profits like any other business, but I’m not about to take advantage of people or a situation.
By the way, Ettore rubber is more money than other brands. Ettore is still a top selling brand despite their being cheaper option that work well. Some of it is marketing, some of it is reputation, some of it just user preference. All those things build the “value” that makes Ettore rubber. If you are hiring subs, that tell me you “value” is not centered around yourself or your business. You are just selling generic window cleaning (which also reinforces my suspicion you are not top tier in pricing).
I don’t care where you price, it just kind tells me what 50% of your invoice is, is all.
The most common percentages of what I’ve seen over 15 years of being involved with a number of companies:
30-39 - Newbie subs, or someone who is really fast and just likes to have a full schedule, or from large company with many options and pricing is good.
40-50% - most common.
51-65% sub is only used in rare overflow, or the company doesn’t want to grow the business or doesn’t care about profit, just wants to coast
66-80% non-sustainable, unicorn amount, usually between single man operations with no other options, never from a company that has employees.
There have been those above that have spoken out of of hypotheticals and what they would demand, but these are real world numbers from a dozen or more companies I’ve been close to over the years
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How am I being disshonest and what motivation donInhave for doing so? Everything I have stated I have backed up with numbers not opinion.
I didn’t feel "used "at all. 50% is plenty to do well with your business if you know how to manage things right.
50% is based on the numbers not my opinion. Also it is a percentage so your compensation is based on the level of pricing. If the job is priced right 50% is plenty. As for my pricing the jobs I sub out right now I make $100.00 an hr or more on, so my pricing is plenty high enough.
It’s not my fault you don’t understand economics. The figures are not my opinion but based on economic and sound proven business principles held by business experts.
Just fyi I just left the local window xkeaninf supplier most companies use here for their supplies. He recommends subs and bsuiness3s to sub a all the time and has been in the industry for 30 years locally both as a window cleaner, business owner and supplier. Fornkicks I asked him without any coaching, what his the going rate for subs? What dobyoubthunk he said? 50%!
I told him about the damand for 70% and we both had a good laugh.
Ok… If you are being honest, why would you consider a sub at 50% when you can hire a temp at 10-20%? You claim you can get a sub for very little, so why is a sub ever more valuable than a temp?
My 100% is based on fact and my own numbers. I know what it costs daily for fixed costs, and what my costs to do the work are. Why would I be so dumb to do the work for 50% when I can go bid the same job you did for 90-80% of your price? I’d obviously have more value to offer since it would be me or my employees doing the work, and the client would not have to deal with whoever I sold the work to.
So I DO understand economics, quite well as a matter of fact. You claim employees are 30% of your cost. The only way that could be so, is if you pay diddley. Workers comp, unemployment, benefits, tools for them, and all the costs that are directly associated with employees, is hard to cover at 30%, if you pay them well.
I don’t know how it is where you are, but I have NEVER heard of here, or anywhere, where offering the sub 50% as standard or even wise. You bid a job at 100% of your price to cover expenses and make a profit. If it were really profitable to sub at 50%, you’d be doing it whenever you could. If you think 50% of your price is the cost of marketing, office, and billing/collections, you are nuts.
So why did you ever stop doing sub work? You claim it’s very profitable… Just think, if you followed your own advice of hiring cheap labor, you could sub out all kinds of work, have a workforce of low paid workers, and only have to work a few hours a week sending out billing. Wouldn’t THAT offer you more of the lifestyle you desire?
