Hey guys,
One of my SLX poles is starting to release carbon fiber powder, for lack of a better description, from the top two or three sections. The problem is it doesn’t wash off. It lodges in the skin of the users’ hands and remains there for weeks.
Does anyone have any idea if a coating can be applied to these sections to serve as a barrier?
Tory posted last week or so about waxing his SL-X poles. Checkout the post…perhaps it’s a solution for you.
Thanks, Larry. I might try that. Probably should have done something before now though.
Is it painful or just a visual thing?
It’s not painful. It just looks like we’ve been working on cars. Haha.
Lightweight gloves for pole work maybe…
Good suggestion David, Me and my crew use lightweight gorilla gloves for all WFP work.
You need to get that stuff out of your hand - it’s positively toxic. If they have used acrylonitrile in the glue process - it’s a killer.
This isn’t a joke, get it seen to.
Carbon dust is non-toxic on your hands.
Karl - Why would you think that there is acrylonitrile in these poles?
Rob T - When using any pure carbon pole (such as the SLX) they will produce carbon
dust, if not immediately then certainly within a short while of use. Any
’carbon’ poles that do not immediately produce black dust will actually be a
glass-composite pole with a layer of glass fibre on both sides. The disadvantage
of these ‘glass-composite’ poles is that they are not as rigid or as light as pure
carbon poles. Even these composite poles though will eventually produce
black dust as the inner glass layer wears away.
The easiest way of controlling this is to wear gloves whilst working. I have
worked with carbon fibre poles now for about 10 years and have always worked
with some kind of hand protection as a matter of course; the benefit of this
is that I never get ‘black’ hands. Wearing gloves of some sort should
actually form part of a good method and H&S statement for any contractor as
it also protects against contaminants that the hose picks up. When the
weather is not cold I simply wear a pair of disposable Nitrile gloves ($7
per 100 on eBay), it also means that I can peel them off and eat my lunch or
conduct business with clients with completely clean and hygienic hands.
I would really recommend that you try working with at least Nitrile gloves
with your current SLX. This would completely remove this dust issue for you and would benefit your working hygiene.
Acrylonitrile (AN) is used as a raw material in acrylic fibers, ABS resin, AS resin, synthetic rubber (NBR), acrylamide and other materials.
The reaction gas contains not only AN, but also acetonitrile, hydrogen cyanide and other byproduct gasses, so AN products are obtained by having the reaction gas absorbed into water, then using evaporation separation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyacrylonitrile: Almost all polyacrylonitrile resins are copolymers made from mixtures of monomers with acrylonitrile as the main component. PAN fibers are the chemical precursor of high-quality carbon fiber.
How products are made: Carbon fiber is derived from various synthetic fibers. These fibers are polymers, which consist of long chains of molecules which contain numerous carbon atoms. Carbon fiber can be made from rayon, a synthetic fiber derived from cellulose, a natural polymer found in plants. It can also be made from acrylic, a synthetic fiber derived from an artificial polymer of acrylonitrile molecules, which are obtained indirectly from petroleum. The synthetic fiber is heated, forcing out atoms other than carbon, resulting in long chains of carbon atoms. (If the fiber is heated too strongly, the carbon atoms will form sheets instead of chains, resulting in graphite.) The carbon fiber is spun into yarn, which is woven into sheets.
How Products Are Made: Carbon fibers were developed in the 1950s as a reinforcement for high-temperature molded plastic components on missiles. The first fibers were manufactured by heating strands of rayon until they carbonized. This process proved to be inefficient, as the resulting fibers contained only about 20% carbon and had low strength and stiffness properties. In the early 1960s, a process was developed using polyacrylonitrile as a raw material. This produced a carbon fiber that contained about 55% carbon and had much better properties. The polyacrylonitrile conversion process quickly became the primary method for producing carbon fibers.
Gale’s How Products Are Made: Carbon fiber can be made from rayon, a synthetic fiber derived from cellulose, a natural polymer found in plants. It can also be made from acrylic, a synthetic fiber derived from an artificial polymer of acrylonitrile molecules, which are obtained indirectly from petroleum. The synthetic fiber is heated, forcing out atoms other than carbon, resulting in long chains of carbon atoms. (If the fiber is heated too strongly, the carbon atoms will form sheets instead of chains, resulting in graphite.) The carbon fiber is spun into yarn, which is woven into sheets.
The fiberglass or carbon fiber sheet is dipped into a solution of liquid plastic resin, then squeezed between metal rollers to leave a controlled amount of resin in the sheet. The sheet is then heated to remove excess solvent and to partially harden the resin until it is slightly sticky. A metal template is laid on top of a stack of sheets. A sharp blade cuts around the template, producing several cut sheets of the same shape. The exact shape varies with the type of rod being made, but generally resembles a tapering rectangle.
Acrylonitrile is a toxin and possible carcinogen used in industrial manufacturing.
Chemical Formula: C24H40O5, C3H3N1
Other names: Cholic acid acrylonitrile clathrate
Layman’s explanation: Acrylonitrile is an industrial chemical used to manufacture fibers, resins, plastics, and rubbers to produce various consumer goods. During its production, use, and disposal, it is mainly released to the air, due to a high evaporation rate, but also to soil and water. By inhalation, ingestion, or contact, acrylonitrile is toxic at high levels, severely affecting the nervous system, respiratory system, skin, and eyes. It causes cancer in animals and is a suspected human carcinogen. Although acrylonitrile is produced on a large scale, it reacts with chemicals and sunlight when released to the air, thus has a half-life less than 50 hrs. When released to soil or water, bacteria typically degrade it. Therefore, the environment is not permanently affected when the chemical is regulated.
Makes me laugh (possible carcinogen)… when I worked with this stuff at ICI - they told us if you knew what it smelt like - you were dead.
Also suggest you read this Rob - The Hidden Dangers of Carbon Fibres | Aerotherm
How serious is Irritant Contact Dermatitis? Irritant contact dermatitis varies in seriousness. This is primarily dependent upon its original cause. Cases of irritant contact dermatitis caused by something so mundane as a rough shirt are only barely worthy of attention, and that attention goes no further than ‘Stop wearing that shirt’ or ‘Wash that shirt with some fabric softener next time so it doesn’t chafe’. However, irritant contact dermatitis may be caused by far more exotic and far more dangerous materials, such as carbon fiber shavings. These can be very difficult to remove from the skin, allowing them to cause ongoing damage. Some materials may, in addition to causing irritant contact dermatitis, be quite toxic.
Exposure to an irritant such that it causes irritant contact dermatitis may similarly indicate that a dangerous irritant is present or situationally relevant when it otherwise would have gone unnoticed. This makes it something of a blessing, no matter how much of a curse the rash might be: it is far better to find one’s hand tight, itchy and red after touching something that is shedding carbon fibers than it is to discover the presence of carbon fibers by inhaling them into one’s lungs.
Try Gripworx gloves from Ironclad. They’re sticky enough to hold a 60’ in an open palm. Really cuts down on fatigue with larger diameter poles. Last forever.
That scares me, Karl. To think that it might pose the same danger as asbestos is frightening.
The answer is UV coating - only a minimal coating is applied (if any). UV light breaks down a product with a minimal lifespan like c/f. But treat this seriously, it’s a new product, many won’t report the dangers or just say “inconclusive data.” The risks/dangers are reported from many independent researchers.
I’ve warned of carbon nano- technology before.
Karl all of the above facts you have quoted are correct. However this information that you are quoting apply only to the raw materials used in carbon fibre production and are supplied and published for those working with the raw materials in the manufacturing process. All of the relevant safety data sheets apply to these raw materials not the finished article when they are rendered into an generally inert state. Carbon fibre poles (whether WFP, fishing, ski, etc.) are a finished product and these material facts do [U]not[/U] apply to them.
Acrylonitrile - is not very nice and the scary facts you mention are worth bearing in mind if we were using it in its raw liquid state before it has been used and cured with carbon fibres. As the text material, you have quoted and linked to above, states this product even when uncured has a very short life and quickly becomes safe and inert. When used as part of a finished carbon fibre tube this component poses no known health risk.
Carbon fibre particles during manufacture do need treating with care and fall into the same category as MDF dust, wood dust and even plaster dust (house walls). All of these if inhaled can be carcinogenic when lodged in lung tissue. This is crucial for those working in the carbon fibre production and manufacturing industry. However even in the factories producing these poles most of the carbon fibre has already been rendered dust particle free by the Pre-Preg process which most of the modern poles are made from (not the X-Tel range which uses pultrusion). This is a chilled ‘wet’ fabric which has the resin already in the carbon fibre. After this fabric is cured then the only way dust can be produced is if these sections are cut with a saw. Many factories use a wet cutting method which eliminates the issue of dust.
During use when Water Fed Poles produce carbon residue this is in a wet form due to the presence of water and therefore cannot be inhaled. On the skin it poses no danger - other than discolouration.
As stated Nano-technology carbon fibre particles do pose an even greater risk , but these materials are generally used in the fishing pole industry not the WFP industry. Once again though these risks are generally only there for the use of this material in production and manufacture when even greater care and dust elimination procedures would need to be followed. A fisherman using the end product would not be at the same risk.
For the end user of carbon fibre products there are of course none of these risks. An area where care would need to be taken is by any DIY’ers who saw carbon fibre tubes. This would produce dust which you would not want to inhale (the same as MDF, wood or plaster dust). Suitable dust masks should be worn in this situation. Another risk that has been mentioned is from splinters - this would be the same as the risk from wood or metal splinters and a splinter should be removed as soon as is practicable.
Tell that to the people with asbestosis who have never made asbestos in their life. The fact you didn’t know that acrylonitrile was a make up of water fed poles is an indicator that you shouldn’t really be giving out health advise & advising which situations it is safe & isn’t. Although we can find a common indicator - pulmonary fibrosis - it’s a killer. You are answering this thread in a protective standpoint for your product. I am more interested in Robs & other users welfare. Heat is a c/f enemy & friction & UV increases it’s rapid breakdown (especially here in Spain) as I’m sure you’ve seen from the fusing/sticking of pole sections. Perhaps we can work towards making safe handles or a sealant on the parts where poles are commonly held? I can think of fixes that can be applied right now i.e. heat shrink tubing.
Your c/f poles & the fishing pole industry poles are made chemically in the same way & have the same genetic make-up. Pre-preg process you mention makes the poles dust free, but when we have worn it down to recreate the dust, we are in the same situation of someone handling the raw material. A fisherman would not have the same risk because of the usage factor i.e. constantly holding the pole, sliding his hands up & down & squeezing it to the extent wfp’s do. Let’s work together & make these poles safer!
Alex, not that anyone is going to sniff them or anything, but our poles are frequently dry while shedding the dust. Is there anything I can coat them with that will stand up to use? Can I spray them with an epoxy?
I was repairing my supermax that a numbskull went and cracked section 5 at the bottom, was cutting it and ended up getting a nice carbon fiber splinter in my hand. THAT sucker hurt, and was hard to get out, had to cut around it with an exacto knife.
Anyhow, the powder…
You can use a very, very light coating of premium tire dressing applied with a clean microfiber applicator sponge. Makes it look good too, but you won’t get that “dust” until the next day after its used in the field. Remember to always clean that pole out by:
-Fully extending the pole on the ground (without the gooseneck) laying out a bath towel under the pole tip and running water from a garden hose from the base section…slowly turning the pole to make sure you wash all the dirt out.
-Rinse the outside of the pole too, and dry it with a microfiber towel. (some sand/dirt will still be inside the pole on each section from the clamp to the bottom of each section. So every weekend each pole that was in the field gets taken apart and washed, new tape applied, dressed (all sections but the base), and waxed (base section only, and any poles/sections that have been repainted).
You will reduce scratching on all sections by doing this and extend the life of your pole.
When Alex is back from work he will be able to reply. However, I would like to say that as he is responsible for the five children still living with us at home, his health and safety is very important to our family. I know that health and safety is a main consideration for Alex and he would not do anything to endanger himself or put our family at risk. I realize you do not like Alex but to suggest that Alex cares more for his products than his and other window cleaners’ health is completely inaccurate and deeply offensive.
I am not pointing the finger at Alex specifically - I am merely trying to see a way forward with this for all carbon fibre pole owners be it Gardiner or another company. Product knowledge is a good thing, especially with a “new” material like c/f. We have little to go on except for what previous experience has taught us with similar materials, don’t take it personally.
