High rise section here seems to get NO attention. Are most of you residential and route guys? Curious who services the high rise end of the industry here?
Many of the folks at Window Cleaning Network (AKA ‘World’): http://window-cleaning.net/
Yea I am aware of them dont care much for it. Not much talk on high rise work there either. Thanks for your response
Paneless, I just came across a website that looks like you clean high rise?
I figured you only did residential and storefront because you dont post regarding the high rise end of the business or safety which are big topic for high rise businesses.
The page I saw looks to provide mainly high rise work in the Toronto area, is this you?
We clean High Rise windows, Been do them since i was a kid
David A Ashley
Morningstar Window Cleaning
Yes, sir, that’s my company :
http://panelessperfection.com/toronto-high-rise-window-cleaning.html
In fact, my photo is in several places on that page, doing WC work from an aerial lift.
My company is fully certified, trained, and insured for it, but it’s very annoying and mostly price-shoppers or back-scratchers in my local market in Toronto.
A few companies that pay guys $14/hr for chair and stage work have the whole city eating out of their hands. I’ve been amazed at how many building managers have scoffed at pricing that I would make only reasonable margin on.
I’ll probably pull this side of my business in 2008.
Not worth the extra $1000’s in overhead. I can make WAY more money on the ground, and it’s a lot simpler, too.
And safer.
Maybe in a smaller city, making a go of high-rise would be more “do-able”, but not in a metropolis like Toronto, where mega-million dollar high-rise WC companies have their fingers in everything, and the deep pockets to send building managers to Hawaii for vacation…I’m not naive enough to be blind to this reality, either, but I digress…
[QUOTE=panelessperfection;2943]
My company is fully certified, trained, and insured for it, but it’s very annoying and mostly price-shoppers or back-scratchers in my local market in Toronto.
What does the certification process consist of? Commercial accounts anywhere try to get the lowest $ they can. Property managers figure they can save some money from the WC budget and put it somewhere they think is more valuable. These are the customers we dont want but being in a large city we have more opportunity to pick and choose the accounts that will pay us for service, windows are everywhere. The larger areas have more opportunities.
Maybe in a smaller city, making a go of high-rise would be more “do-able”, but not in a metropolis like Toronto, where mega-million dollar high-rise WC companies have their fingers in everything, and the deep pockets to send building managers to Hawaii for vacation…I’m not naive enough to be blind to this reality, either, but I digress…
I never thought of there being any mega-million dollar WC companies out there. Are they the ones that are paying $14 an hour? They must have a huge workforce.
Certification would include training by accredited instructors (in the eyes of the Ministry) in rope descent, fall arrest, fall prevention, etc.
And as far as mega-million dollar companies, yeah - think about all the big buildings in a metropolis center like Toronto (5th biggest city in North America, I think?), and then factor in the low-paying workers, and you’ve got yourself a wickedly profitable combo.
$5-10 million/yr easy.
Perhaps “mega” was an extreme adjective. “Multi” would be more accurate…
With respect to the “pick and choose” statement, I have yet to see a building manager that pays a reasonable amount of $$ for high-rise window cleaning, but to be honest, I have not spent years hunting these people down and trying to make a sale, as you likely have, with success. I have seen buildings with TONS of glass, and pretty good workmanship, being done for approximately HALF of what I would charge.
No thanks. I’ll stay on the ground.
I have not spent years hunting good jobs down as I built a strong customer base within a short time.
I am glad that you held to your prices and didnt try to compete at a lower cost just to get work.
We dont want the customer that cares only on the price because they can drop you with no problem for a little less money.
Always price jobs at your price, you will not get all of them but you will get the important ones that you make money on and can build lasting business relationships into the future with.
Many people start off pricing too low or adjusting their prices just to get work, that is not the way you will build a business.
Paneless you see where your price point needs to be and you stick to it, good job!
Kevin, it is Phil (Clearly professional). Nice to see you again bro.
I do rope descent…the money is no better for the time involved than most ground floor stuff. The margins are about the same…only less competition…with less glass.
I will continue through 08 but I will pull the serivce this year too.
“Training” is now available @ a few places here in the USA that will provide certification. But they do not teach “window cleaning” …only proper access from roof tops, proper tie backs, methods, rescue, inspection etc. Mainly things to keep one “safe” in the eyes of OSHA.
[B]Hey Phil![/B]
Wow, been a while…nice to hear from you, too, man.
Yeah - I agree with you for all of those reasons, too. Low margins, low amount of work to go around (relative to ‘other types’ of WC clients out there, i.e. Residential), and lots of red tape to get tangled up in.
Not saying it can’t be done, but I don’t see enough advantages to make a more serious go of it, around here, anymore.
[B]Superior[/B]: That’s great that you established yourself in your local high-rise market so quickly. What was the key to that?
This is what worked for me.
Prior to starting a window cleaning business I worked in the field for a good number of years. This gave me a head start of the different markets (residential,low or high rise commercial, and storefronts) and the ups and downs of each, giving me a direction to which market I could target that was best for my style.
I find it hard when people invest into a window cleaning business and right from the beginning they need to learn how clean a window.
This prior experience gave me insight to what property managers wanted and were not getting. So I sold customers on the idea that I would make their cleanings safe and hassle free.
Property managers gave me the owner operated small business a shot, because in the past they realized that they always hired the large businesses that sent various employees out unsupervised resulting in poor service, leaving the property managers basically to babysit.They want to be assured that all work is performed without disrupting their tenants and employees.
I targeted large complexes that were affiliated with other large complexes with the idea that if I get my foot in the door on one, provide them with a [U]valuable service[/U] … it will open many others.
In doing this I acquired accounts that take 3-4 men anywhere from 1-4 weeks to complete, completing them with Zero concerns or complaints.
This was my vision going into it and still is today.
I prefer to work 1 commercial building for $30,000. rather than to work 100 homes at $300. each for $30,000.
Awesome niche superior.
I made the mistake of trying to be everything. Your foresight has proved valuable.
I also kied being at one place for a time rather than the always moving. However, for me it went south…all eggs one basket kinda thing. so, I revamped my goals. Now they include more TV 
Very interesting, Superior.
And to echo Phil, well done on the success with micro-segmenting.
Did you leverage [B]existing relationships[/B] with property managers (whom you met during your employee years for that other company), or did you [B]cold-call [/B]people that you had NEVER met before?
P.S. A thought regarding your formula:
[B][INDENT]4 guys x 4 weeks = 80 work days
$30,000 divided by 80 days = $375/day per guy[/INDENT][/B]
Do I have this right?
[QUOTE=panelessperfection;3004]Very interesting, Superior.
And to echo Phil, well done on the success with micro-segmenting.
Did you leverage [B]existing relationships[/B] with property managers (whom you met during your employee years for that other company), or did you [B]cold-call [/B]people that you had NEVER met before?
QUOTE]
I did not use any prior contacts as I did have a 2 or 5 year non compete agreement that I did sign with a main company I had worked for as an employee. Even if it was not legal binding I signed it, agreed to the terms, basically out of respect.
I started my business with integrity and still carry the same values.
Cool. Giant kudos, Superior.
I wouldn’t call leveraging a lack of integrity if you [I]could have done it legally and ethically (if they would have been okay with it),[/I] I was just trying to get a sense for the nature of your business growth.
Hope it didn’t [I]sound [/I]like an accusation…
How about the math thing - do I have that right? Is that a typical daily take?
Superior, your experience reminds me of mine this past summer. I managed to take on a job that took me 7 days alone, consisting of 3, 5 story buildings, 1-3story building. One of the reasons I was awarded the job, was that I was a one man crew.(with the exception of a guy to hold my ladder, and or direct traffic while I was using the lift). It took a little bit longer than the crew they had the year before, but the work was done way better, and they had less hassle to deal with. On the plus side, I paid my helper $500 to help me for the couple days he was with me…not too bad considering all he did was hold a ladder, and direct traffic. and i took home $8000 not bad for 7 days of window cleaning!
Nice, Crazy!
Was that profit [I]after the lift rental too?[/I] The $8,000 ?
I actually threw that $30,000. range out there. I should have said I prefer 1 big job that lasts for a week to a few weeks rather than a bunch of smaller jobs during the same time frame.
Its all productive time, eliminates alot of downtime from traveling to multiple sites.
My numbers are 450-500 per day, per man, when bidding meaning a guy at entry level can produce this and a experienced guy will surpass by 100-200 a day. I dont bid based on my speed I base upon the average/beginner speed of an employee to be sure #'s cant fall below this.
Per day, per man includes anyones time spent in my business (secretary,salesman,laborers) if I have 2 employees and 1 secretary working thats 1350-1500 billed each day.
Okay, thx.
$450-$500+ per guy, per day is a very respectable number, for any WC niche.
It’s a shame that something so specialized and dangerous is not priced much higher. Before I got into high-rise, I thought they all made a killing!
Not so, [I]sadly[/I]…
