Has anyone ever compiled a list of tempered glass manufacturers or suppliers with their probability that a razor will scratch their glass? I know there is many out there who could take look at this list and cringe at many of the companies?
http://www.glasswebsite.com/divisions/tempering/
As decent a track record as some tempered glass companies have overall, there is NEVER a guarantee that an outstanding company won’t let FD slip by on their next piece.
I’m pretty sure even Guardian which has had a pretty good record says don’t use a scraper. Someone else who’s more into this discipline could add to this.
I know in my experience Old Castle tempered, in doors and sidelights especially, is the absolute worst. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an old castle door without scratches.
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My background is on the supply side. I worked for one of the largest window manufacturers as a senior estimator and project manager. The truth is only the largest companies temper their own glass. The one I worked for supplied 6,000 windows in the 1980s on the empire state building retro fit and the 26 windows in the crown of the statue of liberty. They were doing many thousands of windows per year for decades and only put a tempered glass oven in in 2001.
The reason is that tempered glass cannot be cut. A typical window manufacturer buys 12 ft x 12 ft approx. Sheets of annealed ,non tempered, float glass. They have computerized cutters to optimize the cuts and the whole process of making insulated glass units is automated. These operations are set up for speed and efficiency. The windows that require tempered glass are as follows. The frames are built in the same factory as above but the tempered glass or tempered insulated glass unit is order from a jobber and the glass is put into the window in the shop. When the order ships, nobody usually knows were the tempered glass came from.
The glass in general on commercial jobs often does not come from the window manufacturer glass line. Most low e glass is called hard coat. It comes in big sheets as above and is easy to cut and work with.
Many commercial projects call for soft coat low e from Cardinal or similar. Soft coat low e is very difficult to work with but gets specified as it has slightly higher performance criteria.
To see where glass came from, look for the markings on the corner of the visible glass. To see who the window manufacturer is, look at the frame labels. To see who fabricated the insulated glass units, look at the silver inside surface on the edge of the glass spacer.
[QUOTE=hunterst;242700]I know in my experience Old Castle tempered, in doors and sidelights especially, is the absolute worst. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an old castle door without scratches.
^ this
Been installing glass from there Warrington Mo factory since 1995. Back then it was owned by HGP. Since Oldcastle bought them out quality has continually dropped.
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Dan: so it’s kinda like playing Russian roulette with one bullet in the chamber verses five bullets? 
Yes, but with no guarantee the odds won’t go south at any time.
Gary would like this.
The “nice guys” on your list would sue your pants off.
And I’m not kidding.
The IWCA had to change a couple of slides in their old FD awareness PowerPoint show, because a couple of quality companies they mentioned weren’t as friendly as everyone thought.
Ironically, people have been bitching about other companies for a decade on forums - and those companies haven’t threatened legal action.
Why do you think that is, Gary?
If it was an organized activity, they would take it seriously.
A random guy, just mouthing off on a forum can’t do much harm.
And I suppose if they sent that guy a threatening letter and it went viral, they don’t know what would happen.
The bigger reason I think they let it slide is - for every window cleaner they see blaming a glass company, they probably see 5 window cleaners blaming each other.
Most of my customers live in old houses with brand new Anderson Renewal windows so I’m happy. They make quality windows, but they’re expensive.
Everybody threatens to sue…
Put this one on the naughty list
Oldcastle.
Here is a new window hot off the line came in this morning covered with silicon notice the Gana sticker" do not use razor blades blah blah blah. How do you clean that mess.
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Old Castle says it all.
I have been doing more and more CCU, and have concluded that razors and steel wool are verboten. Razor are to be used in only the most limited and localized manner, for small bits of debris. Steel wool is never to be used, for two compelling reasons: knocking fines loose and wedging them under the pressure of rubbing (brass wool poses the same risk), and formation of rust in the pad itself.
I am finding with patience, a lot of water, orange cleaner and magic erase, and judicious use of white scrubbers can solve most things I run into, the most important ingredient is taking the time and don’t rush.
More contractors, at least the ones I am working with, are having no problem paying up to 3 times the normal rate for maintenance cleanings for CCU because the alternatives are almost all nightmares waiting to happen.
There is a good bit of work for skilled CCU window cleaners, if a contractor doesn’t want to pay let them take the risk - one mishap with an unqualified wc’er will have them calling. Just happened this week - three months ago a contractor laughed me out of countenance. Fourteen windows needed replacing on that job out of 16. Sent my invoice for work performed yesterday.
I don’t know, I think FD is a reality and we just need to roll with it and adapt - and charge for the value of our research and patience. I see this as a boon, actually, because running to low cost providers will most likely yield high cost problems.
years ago this article was featured in a trade mag, I made photo copies of it… (thats how long ago)
I still have copies of it printed out to explain the price of N/C tempered:
The Fields Company - Glass Quality
proper manufacturing would solve the problem but, scratched glass=replacement glass=profit=blame the cleaner
bottom line; builders want clean glass cheap and don’t care about the details, many manufacturers don’t care about quality, just quantity,
my least favorite: cascade (empire pacific), I can feel the bonded debris on their tempered with my hand sometimes.
$0.02 added.
~Jimmy~
I know that builders want their glass cleaned cheaply. But this is a problem that plays right into our pockets. It is a given that (for the most part) builders will seek the lowest cost provider, but this isn’t like going with a bucket Bob that charges a quarter of what we would to do a maintenance clean on a store front. The difference between the Bob and us at a storefront is an abstract of perceived value, if the Bob can manage to wipe bird crap and fingerprints off of glass. But with glass quality requiring more and more thought as to how a perfect clean can be achieved, a Bob of any stripe cannot perform at this level. This is not an abstract, but real street level economics. I say let the speed freaks and the Bobs have the $2.00/per pane cleaning jobs. I would much rather be making $10.00 to $50.00, or more, a pane - especially seeing that on many jobs, only a few panes are significantly soiled that require extraordinary attention. The rest I can clean at near maintenance speeds at a much higher per unit price.
The builder is in a vulnerable position: If they contract out to an unqualified cleaner, they will be hurt - I just witnessed this. We don’t have to be the patsy here any longer. Also, when we arrive to the job site, the window of time is short before the property gets turned over to the homeowner or tenant. A major screw-up really cannot be reversed before their reputation is on the line - if they hired an unskilled wc’er, it is because they decided to, not because skilled window cleaners were not available.
Maybe efforts at education shouldn’t be aimed at the builder, but at the prospective owner or insurance companies. If the owners receive scratched glass, it is because of the builder’s lack of due diligence - so require that the builder hire skilled window cleaners. Simple. Triangulate: There is a problem with FD and traditional methods of cleaning glass ill damage their windows; there are qualified window cleaners that have knowledge and ability to do the job without incident with a high level of professionalism; builders have the choice to hire them or save a few hundred dollars (sounds like a lot, but corrections require thousands) on a Bob. Insurance companies can be an especially effective ally, I think, if this is an avoidable problem.
Glass manufacturers won’t change - it is futile and a waste of energy carping at them about their sub-par product. Ultimately, it lands on the builder if we give due diligence and adapt to these conditions. I think it is marketing genius that can make a window cleaning company the overall choice in their market. It is also a viable model to earn the trust and confidence of builders to be the first call for their project borne out of [U]quantifiable[/U] attributes of reliability, professionalism, and skill. CCU, through the agency of glass manufacturers, launches window cleaning into being true tradesman/women. With new coatings and declining quality, this is a high time to be a curious, patient, and trusted partner in real estate development and building maintenance.
I am not that long into the business, but I am getting more excited about all of this FD stuff every time I get a new job.
