No, just stick with your NCE certs and leave WCRA alone. I’m sure you can find someone who will do window cleaning certification for you for the right price.
They might do it for free if they’re smart enough to claim to their prospective customers that they certified a bunch of guys and present themselves as an "industry expert"
We won’t get into the whole “who certified the certifier?” chicken/egg thing.
That’s the problem. And indicates the true motive behind some of the people in the industry now.
Writing specific RFP’s so it limits who can bid - that goes FAR beyond setting standards - that’s rigging the system, almost like price fixing. I won’t have any part in that.
Correct. A great safety program with regular safety meetings translate to lower or no injury liabilities. Certifications do nothing.
Safety is a common topic here on WCR and WCRA. Chris has given us his safety manual which has been great. No need to give us a special logo to “prove” we care though.
In the high rise industry I would agree that guys are not awarded contracts based on safety standards and training. But there is a huge difference when you drop down to low rise and then residential window cleaning. If you bid on a any high rise job they will always ask for your insurance and workers comp certificate. If you bid on a mid rise building they may or may not require workers comp but they will almost always require insurance. On low rise commercial 2 stories and under they may or may not ask for insurance and I have never in 13 years been asked for workers comp certificate. This does not mean it’s never asked for. I’m just saying I have never been asked for one. In residential I have workers comp rarely asked for but more often than low rise commercial.
The point being the requirements and standards for the high rise industry greatly differs from low rise and residential. Even the consumer recognizes this. Workers comp rates sore when you go over 3 stories. So even insurance industry recognizes the difference. I am all for a standard safety program for High rise as there is a huge risk across the board for everyone in the industry including consumers when guys don’t know what they are doing. You need more than common sense to operate in the high rise industry. You need formal and practical training. I could not see being able to put together enough material to put together a safety “certification” program that. That being the case To have some “certification” is just a sneaky way of convincing consumers into thinking your more qualified for the job, when everyone in the industry knows your full of bologna and just greedy for gain! That’s pretty sorry if you ask me.
Now on the other hand if safety is your concern and not the almighty dollar then IWCA already has a safety program you can attend. Last time I went through it they covered residential. They could not even come up with enough meterial to qualify as a class let alone a “certification” program.
I thought WCRA was started as a inner forum limited to a few members per market so those members could share more intimate information about their companies and learn from one another without revealing everything to the competition in their market. I had no idea it was turning into an elite window cleaners club designed to form a monopoly of the market across the US.
Thats not happening at all. We do not offer any certifications or have any plans to whatsoever.
You must be thinking of another group. The WCRA is much more than a forum, and it is not limited by market at all. We have several window cleaners here that share a market. We have not put any type of cap on membership by location.
Thank you, Chris.
I would love it if some of our window cleaning competitors would join. I think it would be easier to command a higher dollar for services, if more people got on board and got away rom the low price strategy.
Just to be clear My comment was not intended to be a direct attack against WCRA, rather an attack on the implications to use certifcations to seperate WCRA members from all other window cleaners. The guys involved in the WCRA seem to benefit from their membership which I am all for.
Sorry if I confused WCRA as being only for a few members in a market I thought I had recalled it starting that way, which I thought was good but I must be confusing it.
This issue is really market driven: If your customers don’t care about certification, and as long as you have the know-how and expierence to teach self-rescue (usually a high-rise issue), inspect, properly rig, understand you and your customers responsibilities under the OSHA enforced I-14 (and many of you do), there is no need.
For instance, if you do a lotta CCU, you may opt for OSHA 10 or 30 training because your general contractor customers sleep better at night if you do. Not because you neccesarily need it (though you just might learn something), but because his insurance companies audits look for this among his subcontractors.
The same can be said for employee uniforms, truck lettering, photo ID’s, etc, none of which prove your competency, and may be completely unneccessary in your market. If you ever caught yourself thinking something or action seemed unprofessional (or professional), you are recognizing your markets expectations. You then act accordingly.
Interestingly, we did not create the requirement for IWCCI certfication our customers asked for, but we responded to get and keep their business. Some of our customers require steel toe boots and hard hats for all contractors. It’s completely unneccesary in some working environments, sometimes even uncomfortable-but here’s the thing: They pay for it. So we do it.
Just decide what your market expects, not your competition.
So in a nut shell your saying wcra doesn’t have the credibility to hold it?
I will argue the chicken and egg.
This association is top a top notch org.
I believe the resources are here and Chris and members are smart enough to come up with one.
Regardless what you call it a great training program here will happen. Membership will dictate and Chris and Alex have there fingers on the pulse.
Wcra is light years ahead.
Ron Musgraves text me for questions 480-522-5227 Pressure Washing Institute
Yes but customers have to take your word. If associations hold teach or train. The credibility of safety increases. Plus your not alone , you can set share and Better standards as comrades.
I’m not here to argue dictate or push. My experience of not having it over 27 years might lend some light as to why it’s relevance.
It seems those opposed I’m not sure I’m clear as to why? Fear
I have given many reasons why. So why do you guy really think advanced safety by your association is bad ???
Ron Musgraves text me for questions 480-522-5227 Pressure Washing Institute
I sometimes have feelings of indignation when I see what I consider inferior companies cleaning windows at locations I feel I should be servicing and the thought has occured to me that we, the REAL companies, need to help separate the wheat from the weeds. Do I think certification for resi. and commercial would really make a big difference? Not at this time. This highlights that we need to be on the ball with our efforts to land the best accounts for our situations, whether by actively trying to convince owners to make the switch or in marketing the things that put us on a higher level and that matter to owners. We should be able to quickly provide proof of liability insurance and references for our clients. That seems to matter more than some acronym in my market.
I’m in agreement , who’s going to lead the way?
I think collectively we could make a difference. Members should also pledge to up hold higher standards to make these real.
Someone has to lead it. I hate to see wcra not set the standards. They are the leaders in this industry, I’m sure if they don’t it’s not going to matter. If they do it they will ensure they stay on top. It’s really not that difficult to achieve this if people are will to co-op market to consumer.
At the end of the day are they important, only as good as those people who will use them.
It won’t make you better, just can give customers the edge to hire you because your suppose to know better. Thus creating a safer work place, reducing liability for there clients.
Ron Musgraves text me for questions 480-522-5227 Pressure Washing Institute
When you started cleaning windows did you have a marked vehicle, uniforms, a water fed pole, and all the best equipment? If you did that’s great because I bet you started with more than most guys started out with.
The 18 year old kid who does my lawn is an 18 year old senior high school kid who doesn’t seem to have a good home life. He shows up to my house in his foreign early 90s model compact car and pulls his 10 year old off brand lawn mower out of the trunk, which takes him forever to start. He recently bought a beat up old truck bead trailer (advancing and investing in his business. A Sign of vision, diligence, and responsibility). He has a great attitude and you can tell he does the best that he knows how to do which shows he cares. He does a good job.
He may not be as experienced as other crews that pull through the neighborhood in their full size double cab diesel dully with five guys in it and new utility trailer full of brand new toro’s who have been doing it for years and charge twice as much. But I believe he shows signs of greatness. I see past where he is at now and I can see his efforts to go somewhere in life despite his situation home. I want to support him. I would not change lawn guys unless he did something drastically wrong. I actually find myself pulling for him every time he shows up. When he can’t start his mower it makes me want to go buy him a new one. But I know its not my fight. I find myself drawn to him.
You see he inspires me! he reminds me that its possible to change your circumstances. He makes me think beyond where I am at now to a greater future. His tenacity and drive to succeed strengthen me in my own fight. He reminds me of myself when I first started my business. I now have uniforms, employees from time to time and marked truck with all the right equipment along with plenty of contracts to drive by that guy doing the job I think I should be doing. But I don’t see a weed but a sapling that will someday grow into an oak tree that can withstand the strongest storms in life. I will stop and watch him so I can be inspired by his fight to succeed. I will probably talk to him so I can get a chance to subtly encourage him being careful not to be condescending. He will probably become an acquaintance and hopefully some day a good friend.
Maybe someday when I am down on my luck I he’ll hire me when no one else will. I thank God for grace and mercy!
God bless you Dan.
Great post , wish I knew how to like on Tapatalk
Ron Musgraves text me for questions 480-522-5227 Pressure Washing Institute
I see both sides of this issue. Certifications are fine, if they mean something. Just showing up and paying 500 bucks for a weekend of seminars and “classes” in Atlanta (pick a city), taking an open book test and voila, you are a certified window cleaner. This just doesn’t cut it and you are paying 500 bucks for a decal to put on your window.
When I started cleaning windows back in the Stone Age, when I carried a beeper and kept my records on a cassette tape for my TRS-80 and Commodore 64, I was also a member of the better business Bureau and the Chamber of Commerce. “They” (still haven’t figured out who [I]they[/I] are) were telling me I had to carry these logos on my truck or ads to prove my value. [I] They[/I] were only interested in my money and [I]they[/I] were wrong.
I have been a CBSE (Certified Building Services Executive) for 20 years. My janitorial services business dwarfs my window cleaning, always has. I had to attain a CBSM (Certified Building Services Manager) first. It was a program where I had to provide verifiable proof that I could manage the housekeeping in a variety of properties from small, single office spaces up to multi facility properties, government properties, malls, etc.
It took me 2 years to get the CBSM. It meant something to me and my customers. It was a program where I had to put hands on successfully in a variety of real world contract situations. It was about skill and not money, the out of pocket for the program was less than 300 bucks and the tests were 75 to 100 each.
The move up to CBSE involved the administrative part of the business, the budgets, bidding, customer relations, government regs/BS and the aspects we all hate about the operations of our business. This also meant something to me and my customers. It opened doors to large regional, state and national contracts, because it proved I could handle a contract for all their properties in a given state or region. Most of the management people in the National Service Providers we all love so much usually have some form of CBSE credential.
A certification in anything is good if it MEANS SOMETHING more than you paid some money for a decal, or you spent a weekend in January at Disney in Orlando for a “seminar”
I enjoy Thad’s NOLA event because I get to meet people in a variety of markets and differing business skills and goals. I get to hear speakers that make ME a better person and business owner. It does not qualify me or certify me or my business as a window cleaner.
As said earlier, who watches the watchmen? Who qualifies as the absolute or ultimate window cleaner to pass judgements on the rest of us? Perhaps a system with tiers, like a CDL or private pilot could work so individuals and businesses would work their way through a program where they have to provide competence in real world situations could be developed. I would support a program like that.
For the most part, I think certifications mean more to the people signing them and cashing the checks than they do to the people cleaning windows and their customers
I don’t think we should look at certs in the traditional sense.
I think they could be some assurance to customers a group such as wcra is setting a standard at which there members know and practice.
Ethics also play a part.
No one is suggesting anyone is better or worse.
I think that’s maybe the confusion. Everyone gets ramped up about the chicken and the egg thing.
Good points in your post.
Yes this last paragraph is real. People who only care about cashing the check. I think wcra would be more concerned making it valuable to the people who name are on the paper.
Ron Musgraves text me for questions 480-522-5227 Pressure Washing Institute
OK, I will address your points. I will apologize up front for stepping on any toes, it is not my intention. I will try to address the certification issue from MY field of view and I am not starting a rant, flamefest or personal attack to bash anyone. This is my opinion based on my feelings. I may be right or wrong, but it is how I feel.
I have been a member of this forum for a number of years. I appreciate what Chris and Alex have started here, allowing us to exchange information and ideas. This forum has been good for us, and it has been good to Chris and Alex. One of the reasons they started this forum was to advertise their window cleaning supply store. It was and is a great way to increase their customer base and their sales. This forum has created a revenue stream and income for Chris and Alex. I think it a great. They found a new marketing strategy and it has worked very well for them. I applaud what they have done. But let’s not be confused, this forum makes money, it is for profit.
Look at the new layout, with the column of advertising on each side of the pages, the forum is a marketing tool.
Chris and Alex started the WCRA. It is a members only association where they share their years of successful business management and marketing. They have an impressive business history to share. I also believe the WCRA memberships are another income producing revenue stream for WCR. They make money from the memberships. This is also perfectly fine. Each of us has a choice to join or not.
As for the WCRA to start a certification process, I think people from the outside might suspect a profit motive behind the effort. They might look upon the effort as a way to make money. The reason many people trust the Consumer Reports Magazine is because they accept no advertising or corporate donations and are non profit.
Please understand, I am not bashing Chris or Alex, or the WCRA, I am stating that the perception could be what I alluded to in my earlier post. If the WCRA started certifying Window Cleaners, would their education program be available to all, or would membership in the WCRA be required?
There are other questions and observations I have, but I think I this is a place to start the discussion
I can agree with all of it. Your right about that, but because they are upfront and not like all the nonprofit vendors who hide behind nonprofit structure we can find your claims.
See what Chris avid Alex have built is a system they can be judged. If they do what you suggest in anyway we vote by showing no support. I think that because they make money they can build a program that will surpass all the ones that operate the way you suggest behind a vail.,
Please I don’t speak for anyone but do know it’s pretty tough to offend Chris. Besides there track record shows nothing but great stuff for this community and beyond in the window cleaning world.
These guys are honest and smart enough to know the fine line.
I hope they consider training within wcra itself.
Outsiders could view everything you suggested is true if they do not.
This effort would be a pay back to all those who support them rather than how some small petty minded people portray this effort.
Good posts, I love professional discussion with intelligent folks.
It’s a pleasure to see great members with minds of there own.
Ron Musgraves text me for questions 480-522-5227 Pressure Washing Institute
