I received a call to place a bid on these 3 very large commercial buildings. The smallest of the three is bigger than any glass cleaning project that I’ve done to-date.
I wanted to bring up a couple discussion points when considering bids that are much larger than your normal operations are capable of handling.
These projects seem to be quite a headache for several reasons, however, SOMEONE is making money on them, so I figure why not me? That’s the only reason I continue to drive around to these on a regular basis and put in these time-consuming estimates.
When bidding projects like this, I try to get a feel for the budget, but sometimes they give you nothing to work with, so it’s a shot-in-the-dark to see if you’re even gonna be in the ball-park.
Are the companies that regularly handle these projects so large that they send in a crew of 5 or 6 trucks and knock-out the project in 2 days?
When you guys bid on a project that will require some new expensive carbon-fiber poles, do you guys regularly mark-up that cost into the estimate, or do you eat-it in order to acquire some nice, new, revenue-generating equipment. What’s your philosophy?
Is this something that a crew of three guys can complete?
Here are some pictures, any thoughts are appreciated.
I am trying to do the same thing that you are doing. I have some of the same questions, too. However, I have answered and researched much of this on my own and come up with these thoughts.
Buying or renting the equipment should be at least partially paid for by the project. If you need a new pole, then include, at minimum, half of what that would cost you. I wouldn’t buy it until you got the deal.
I always ask for a deposit of 15-25% up front in order to take care of things like this. Most bigger jobs are good to go with that.
I always am sure to ask the customer what exactly they expect out of us when they hire us. I try to find out what the reasons were for hiring the last guy. What did they like about them. Try to keep these thoughts in mind when doing the job. I also ask about what they didn’t like about the last company and make every effort to avoid doing the same things. This keeps you from being the “last guy”.
As far as your building is concerned. I see that there a few obstacles that will be time consumers while window cleaning. Palms in the way for poles, lifts, and ladders. All right in the way, but managable. Also see hangover roofs that you’ll have to work from to clean the upper levels. Again, time eaters but managable. Be sure that you factor those into your bid.
I do prefer to assign multiple crews or more employees to bigger jobs like this to knock them out faster. In the end, you’ll make more money on the projects because you’re spending the same amount of money on crews working, but they’ll all be on the same job. Here is my fuzzy math: If your project is going to take 3 guys 5 days to do it, at 8 hours a day, that is a totall of 120 man-hours. The way I see it is you can put 6 guys on it for 2.5 days, or 9 guys for one long day. The only problem I see with all that is that eventually someone will be in someone else’s way and that leaves another person standing around doing nothing while they wait for an open work space. I think that 4-6 guys for about 2 days would more more than enough for this job.
This is exactly the type of commercial buildings I have been chasing in addition to high-end residential work.
Thanks for all the input. It sure is a headscratcher for a first-timer like me.
Let me get to the meat first, My Bid… Who knows right now. I feel like the winner is gonna be in the 6-9k range. It seems like two to three thousand per building seems right (but what do I know). But considering that my wfp inventory consists of a 45’ tucker and 17’ extel, I am in no position to bid at this range unless I really plan on eating this one and using it as a launching pad for some future commercial work. But the real dilemma lies in the fact that we stay quite busy with residential which we really feel is our target market. So when I consider the opportunity cost of our bread-and-butter work (residential) that we will be pulled away from during this two week commercial project for two or three of us, all of a sudden it seems less profitable. It just seems like this size of a project is really a whole different ballgame. I feel like I belong in the kid’s pool and if I swim too deep I’m gonna get eatin by the sharks…
However, that’s not to say that after a few 56’ superlite’s and a 5 stage ro/di system wouldn’t put us right into the strike zone for a lot of this commercial work.
I really would be afraid to touch this project for less than 15k just because of the inexperience that I have with this size of project and the amount of inventory that I would need to purchase. There will have to be a boom lift for a day or two because of the glass awning structure on a couple of buildings that cannot be walked on by no means says the architect. I think that we would have to boom over it and waterfed from top-down. I don’t even know if that method would be approved.
Bert, you mentioned how you are going after this type of commercial work. Is the main motive because you hope to put the squeegee to rest for a while and put some crews to work? Do you think it will be a fairly headache free business once you have the knack for these projects? What’s your reasoning if you don’t mind?
I’ve talked to a couple of guys who managed building maintenance companies of 20+ employees who said that if they could do it all over, they would have put together a business plan to dominate the residential market. I wonder if they were telling the truth or they were just warning me to not get in too deep.
Well, in one word, Yes, I am trying to put the squeegee down. In fact, I did this past January put it down. My goal was to not do any of the cleaning myself–short training a few new people. However, bad luck with employees has caused me to grab my tool belt and hit the ground running. I would rather not work–as it is of course much nicer on family life to stay in the office, or out doing bids, and being home by 4 o’clock or so, but I still enjoy the actual cleaning part of it. Currenyly I am in the field with crews anywhere from 1-3 days per week, with other time focused on office/prospecting work. Friday will be all prospecting.
I am not only trying to make the move to these type of buildings, but also to buildings that require rope work. I have an extensive back ground in high angle rescue/technical repelling, etc, and of course now wc’ing, so I figure with any luck at all, I will do it a while to test the waters. I live in a large town, or small city, depending on how you look at it. Population of 125K during summer, 160K during school months. We have very select number of high-rise buildings, but I want to conquer this entire Window Cleaning Market. We do great on houses, we do more large commercial and route work that any other company in our area, so to me, the next logical step is to get the big buildings. I want to kick the really big companies with mulitple national locations to the curb and show the world that a local boy can kick a$$, take names, and clean windows too.
My biggest headache is employees. I could have already done much of what I am eager to do now, but employee issues got in the way. Lets just say that this year has been a huge learning experience with having mulitple employees (2-5). I have gone from one full-timer with 2 part-timers, to no one but me, back up to 3 full-timers, and 3 part, and now back down to 1 full-timer and 2 part-timers plus me. I am coming up on the busiest time of the year for us (holiday Lighting) and I’ve got to get some people hired and trained.
My primary goal is to have a business that doesn’t just pay the bills, but puts me in a position to retire or sell out when I decide to, comfortably. I am still going to be a fireman until I decide to retire from that too, but hopefully this biz will enable me to retire from both someday, and possibly pass something along to the kids. All of which are a long way away.
THe pic are a few of the jobs we have either done recently, or are in the process of obtaining. The night(evening) photo is a stock photo from their site, but I don’t have my dig cam right now to access my personal picks.
Are the 3 buildings together/will their be one invoice?
Now I do not have much experience in WCing as yet, what I do know is business. What I would do if I were you is work out what you think it might cost you, then double it. I know from experience, as I am sure many do on here, that to over estimate a project and not get it, is a much more pleasant experience than to under estimate and lose fist fulls of cash.
If your bid is too high and you really do think you can do the job/want the job then at least you have a number you can work down from. All you have to do if they turn the bid down is ask them why, if it is price they will say and you will be able to get a fairly good idea of what he job is worth to them.
Did these people contact you or did you go knocking on doors?
The worst part about these jobs is the bidding process. Selling is great but often they decide on price. Just this morning I called a contractor about a $4,000 bid I submitted on a large building and he told me I lost by 300 bucks. Heartbreaking.
I hate it when that happens. Some jerk-off bean counter trying to save the maximum dollar so his/her budget doesn’t get robbed next year. What a crock. But Unfortunately, as a business owner, I understand why.
The fact that this type of thing happens is one of the very few reasons I dislike bidding blindly, or semi-blind. I really like being able to talk to the decision maker and use the selling techniques I have learned over the past years. You can use wording, tone and inflection of the voice, and questions to persuade the prospect that they should buy from you and not the other guy. I like this option because I am good at doing it. But, with bigger jobs, its hard to get into a position where you can do this.
There will be one invoice, but I do break up the cost of the buildings in the estimate just in case they wanted us to do a particular building or two instead of all of them (for budget or whatever purposes).
I will be heading this advice, thanks.
I’m one of many of wc’ers who were contacted to bid on this
Chances are the others that they have contacted will know exactly how to price the job from experience. Even if you do not get it, you will be have that bit more experience for next time and come that bit closer to getting the next job.
I really would hit them with a comprehensive plan of the work to be carried out, give them a brief outline attached to a detailed proposal, with pictures and if you can (I assume all buildings of this size in the US have plans at the local planning office?) attach a copy of the plans for that building…it might seem like I am going over the top here but if you pay that much detail to the bid it will speak volumes for your WC work. It is all marketing right? At least thats how I see it.
Hit them with the figure you have in mind, dont be shy, at the very least make them think.
I am only going from my own experience here, not in the world of WCing or in the US, but the way I see it, businesses and people are much the same the world over.
Let us know how you get on and what you bid. If you dont get the job do you intend to ask them where you fell down?
KC- this building is not that bad. These buildings are what I primarily do…
The best way to bid this is by how long it will take you to do, and yes you can definitely do this BY YOURSELF. I have 6 buildings 3 on one block and 3 on the block next to it, the smallest being 156,000 square feet. I am able to do this job by myself in 12 hours and I charge 1900.00. Not bad for 2 days work.
My bottom line for work on a day is 600.00 and that is for an 8 hour day. I shoot for 1000.00. Dont cut yourself short, trust me, the second time you do it- it will be a breeze because of course you will have figured out the best way to tackle this beast.
Do yourself a favor and DO NOT charge them extra because you would like to have new tools- if you could do it with a Tucker do it. You could also use another window cleaner in your area that has a pole to help you out and give him maybe 30 or 35 an hour…count THAT in your bid.
I had to get workmans comp. for a commercial job that I wanted, and I did. But it was 800 large up front and I asked another guy in my area if I should have them eat some of that- you cant do it because your price is gonna be higher than everyone else’s.
There are alot of panes that will drip pretty bad, and that is gonna make the job take alittle longer than usual, but this is something that YOU WANT trust me. These property management companies all know each other, and they will actually recommend you.
My reply may be late here, but please consider this question: do you have any other WC business owners that would be willing to help you out on this? Help you bid, help you do the work by subbing one of their better cleaners…etc…
I’m in an area of about 250,000 people and one of the biggest WC companies in town is owned by a friend who has mentored me / walked me through big opportunities like you have in front of you.
The above replies have TONS of great and helpful information. But this is a HUGE job for you to “stumble” over. Does that make sense? Meaning, it’s one thing to underestimate how much work is involved in a big house with 1000 french pane surfaces and under-bid the job. That will hurt.
The job you’re talking about is a different league. If you “stumble” over that one, it could seriously impair your company.
Bottom line: Find someone further along in the WC biz than you and ask for their help!! And then win this job!!!
Always give detailed estimates. If you are going to use the man power / time factor people will like to see the details. IE Bldg #1 left wing 100 panes (sometimes I will label them plates, on large glass) 10 man hours @ $50.00 per hour etc. If you go the per window route, once again be detailed. I give location, rough size and price. Itemize everything. Commercial work is differant then res work. Companies hate to hire contractors for work. They hate it even more when there is a signed contract and the contractor puts in a change order. This is why they want detailed, itemized estimates. They want to see where every dime is going. They don’t want a 1 page quote that has “Window cleaning, 3 level building $15,000.00”. When they see that they toss the quote because all they can think of is the change order that is going to come down the pipe. If you look at large companies who do commercial work you’ll see they price everything in the quote. They price nails, screws, tape, everything.
But as stated before 99% of the time it’s always based on price. Sometimes it’s smoke up your ass from another company to see what you are charging. I do not give quotes for janitorial companies anymore. They all try and get you to “Sub-contract” out the work, but in most of those cases they are just getting a price from you, bumping it up and doing the work themselves. I love when they hit you with the “I have a sweet deal or an inside contact.” All bull****, so don’t fall for it. Tell them you charge for sub-contracting quotes and watch them not bother. I tell them I charge $100.00 and they still don’t want to pay. lol. Be careful of the guy who can’t sign the contract. I had a guy last week. HUGE place around here. Guy tells me he wants me to look at some glass. I go and give him a verbal rough quote. It was very small work but might lead to something much bigger. I give the guy a price of $300.00 he agrees. I pull out a contract. I never do any commerical work without one. The guy says “Contract? Oh I’m not able to sign a contract” So I say to him, “Let me get this stright, you can verbally agree to work. You can have a check drawn up in 1 hour for the job. But you can’t sign my contract?” “No my boss has to read it first.” BULL****. I don’t take that risk. Who knows maybe the boss don’t want you to pay me. Just be careful and never ever do work without a contact. Put your price as to what you want to make. Be fair, don’t get greedy. What’s it going to cost you? Then double or triple the price. My 1st job I priced out I doubled the price I came up with to cover my butt. It was a great job. Profit out the ying yang
BTW I work off a per window price. I don’t like the man power/ time factor. Reason being if you give an estimate of say 100 hours and the job takes you 50 hours, you can bet the company is going to expect to pay only for the 50 hours. So if you get the job done faster you might have to slow down. I price per window, then per level with a combo of time factor. But I never put the time factor into the estimate I just bump up a level charge or per window charge by a little to be where I want to be.
I had a problem bidding these types of jobs for the first 2 years after I went into business. Unlike most I always prefered large commercial to residential because I feel more comfortable cleaning a huge window from a boom than cleaning 4 pane windows with tracks and storms that havent been budged in ten years.
After losing out on many of these large comm. bids by a few bucks I soon learned that building that relationship with the decision maker was the most important part. Most of the jobs now I just tell them to let me know the lowest written bid and I will sharpen my pencil and see if I can meet or beat it. 80% of the time I get it but there is always that 20% when someone is so low I cant justify the time . If you build that relationship and show quality work and professionalism they will just want you to do the work. It really is just about getting in there.
The Update is that I factored into the bid the cost of a pricey 5 stage pure water system and a price wfp, and as a result, I’m gonna be way outta the budget.
I’m actually embarrassed how high I went on it and will not say for sake of losing face.
I’m thinking of contacting the contact I had and requesting if I can plead insanity and revise my bid. Not that I really want this project (I kinda do), but I would if I had built up to this size of job.
I don’t regret bidding on this project cause I learned alot from talking to a few very helpful guys on the phone from this forum and really appreciate the time they gave. I learned that I have so much more to learn and do to take my company to the level that I hope it achieves.
If you want to rebid the guy call them and tell them you gave them the wrong bid. Tell them your notes got screwed up and you gave them the price of a different location you are bidding on. Might let you get a 2nd bid in and save face. Don’t worry about over bidding, it’s how you learn. I bid a 100,000 sqft building one of my 1st ones out. I figured I would bid by sqft and totally was thinking like a moron. I put in a bid at $1.00 per sqft so you can imagine I lost the gig. It was almost like having a major brain fart that went away the second I dropped off the bid. WHAT WAS I THINKING? $100,000.00 to clean a building. Of course I changed how I put in bids after that. I can only imagine the guys face when he opened the packet and I can only imagine what he told the window cleaner who got the job. That window cleaner must think my company either makes millions or I’m just nuts lol. Don’t worry, knowing how to do this still does not mean you will get the gig. One thing I do now, is while driving and I see an building I will work a bid in a mind. Then the next time I pass the same building work another bid and see how much differant they were from each other.
Hi
I do only large high rise and construction cleanup jobs and have for 25 years now. I looked at the pictures of the buildings and at least for me they would be fairly small accounts but im sure for some who do mainly store front it seems like a lot and I have been where you are wondering what to bid on them. I would rent a lift to get to the windows first off. As long as you can get the lift around the building it will work very well. It will be faster then a water fed pole and you can just add the cost of the lift to your bid. Looks life a 60ft boom would due fine. As for bidding, if you use a lift you can bid each window at twice your ground rate and should come out fine. It will take a little longer to move the boom into place to get the next window then it does walking on the ground but you will great access to each window and frame.
