If you never used a razor then why get a waiver signed? I get the waiver signed because I need to use the razor to get the glass clean. Or are we talking about a different waiver?
You should be upfront with people by putting your scratch waiver requirements in the bid so that no backpeddling is necessary. Backpeddling is not graceful.
So I’m a little new to the game here, but do you need to scrape the glass on new construction? If they don’t want to sign a waiver why not just clean the window like you do for regular jobs? You guys can eat me up on this if I sound retarded, I’m a sponge for knowledge right now.
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]My waiver mentions scratches that are preexisting. If I never use a 6 inch razor then I didn’t cause the scratches. If the steel wool causes scratching, and it almost never does, at least I was following GANA guide lines and not ignoring the sticker. I have to mention again that I do not do CCU only post painting clean up. I can understand why a judge would nail a window cleaner to the wall for ignoring the manufacturer’s sticker even with a waiver. They are nailing carpet and upholstery cleaners to the wall on a regular basis. My friends say that the judges are idiots and will not listen to reason. They only care about the poor victim. :([/FONT][/COLOR]
The real victim is the window cleaner.
[FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]In case it isn’t clear here, I want everybody to know I am playing the devil’s advocate here. I know it is politically incorrect to imply that judges and sloppy glass fabricators are devils but you know what I mean.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Yes the real victim is the window cleaner and may I add the homeowner who can’t return their crappy glass that they paid thousands of dollars for.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I will continue to educate the customer and step away from the job. Unfortunately, if they are not honest, they will go looking for a window cleaner they think they can hang. Uneducated window cleaners beware![/FONT][/COLOR]
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Well, what you suggested is not out of the realm of possibility, especially if the builder completely covered both sides of the glass before construction started in earnest. Then there should be no need to scrape or steel wool. Unfortunately, that doesn’t happen in my neck of the woods as a rule and probably most places.
You could state to the builder that you will do just a routine cleaning if he does not want to sign a waiver, explaining why you won’t scrape. This still may be dangerous for you and the property owner, because there may be foreign matter such as concrete that may be dragged along the glass and scratch it. This is besides the fact that the final result will likely look far from satisfactory to all involved.
Another unfortunate reality is that even if you seem to have the ideal situation where the glass has been protected from the beginning and all you are doing is cleaning the frames and a routine glass clean, down the road you or an uneducated window cleaner may need to scrape paint, stain, etc. off those same windows. If there is fabricating debris, which wouldn’t have seemed to be a concern initially, now it’s a problem.
This is the medium picture.
The big picture is that somehow by OUR efforts, education and implementation has to move the glass manufacturers to make acceptable quality glass across the board. Of course, “acceptable” is in the eye of the beholder.
It’s only a problem when the painter or contractor FAIL TO COVER THE GLASS. We should never need to scrape paint!!! The window should be covered!
When they do that I’ll let them correct their own problem. It is not my problem. Tempered glass should not need to be scraped, period!
Refer the customer to the GANA guide lines for painters and contractors. 
I’m just covering the other side of the issue here, not picking a fight w/ Mike.
There are other things that get on the glass and require scraping - dried on egg (from practical jokers), baked on bird droppings, artillery shotgun fungus - I could go on but you get the point.
Another flaw in the whole GANA sticker thing is that after the initial clean it’s gone. Now what about the next guy who has to come in after sloppy painters?
All glass at some point will need scraping! GANA’s rhetoric can’t change that fact. I just did a job today and spent a few minutes educating a homeowner on FD and then was able to show her the results of FD being covered in low-e coating - the dreaded fish eye pattern. She had wondered what those spots were and here was a perfect example of the defect in action.
what’s with the fish pattern Tony is you don’t mind to explain ?
If Fd is present inside the IG unit and a low-e coating is sprayed on it then the reaction will produce a variety of patterns. In some cases it looks like there is sawdust on the glass. Some will look as if rust is on the inside of the IG unit and my personal favorite the fish eye - a small dot surrounded by a lighter or clear ring which in turn is surrounded by another ring of varying intensity.
These reactions are the reason we end up getting the FD surface on the outsides. Before low-e coating the manufacturer would put the defective side in so there was no issue w/ FD. Another thing that shows this is a defect not something inherent in the glass as the GANA BULLetins try to push.
[quote=mistersqueegee;37837]I’m just covering the other side of the issue here, not picking a fight w/ Mike.
There are other things that get on the glass and require scraping - dried on egg (from practical jokers), baked on bird droppings, artillery shotgun fungus - I could go on but you get the point. quote]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I think a bird dropping, and a little artillery shotgun fungus can be handled with a little steel wool or a few scapes with a one inch safety razor. Even two or three drops of paint on each pane of glass isn’t a problem. [/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]No fight here, Tony. I’m just looking for a way to relieve some of the pressure and frustration of the whole dilemma. [B]Being in the middle is a horrible feeling.[/B] I know I will loose business if I refuse to clean up after sloppy painters but I can deal with that. I will step out of the middle and over to the side where I can watch in safety as the homeowner and painter deal with their little FD problem. 
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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I can help in the fight against FD by letting the home owners know that their glass is crap and that it can never be really cleaned properly as long as they have it. If the glass isn’t covered properly I can just hand the whole FD mess over to the painter and let him/her deal with their own mistake. [/FONT][/COLOR]
PS
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Maybe I should mention to the home owner that there is really nothing wrong with their glass according to [B]GANA[/B]. After all the integrity of the glass is fine, and will remain beautiful and clear for the life of the product as long as you don’t try to clean it with anything more aggressive than a cloth and soapy water.[/FONT][/COLOR]
If you haven’t viewed the GANA recommended guide lines here they are.
http://www.glasswebsite.com/publications/reference/Caring%20for%20Today’s%20Architectural%20Glass%20-%2012%2010%2007.pdf
[FONT=Verdana]The wording in this bulletin is shocking. GANA comes right out in the open and admit that the glass may have FD on it. Therefore they recommend that a razor should never be used on the new high performance glass. So it isn’t my problem. If the window can’t be cleaned to the customers total satisfaction without using a razor, I guess it can’t be cleaned!! Oh well. Not my problem.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]I will be carrying copies of the GANA bulletin in my truck from now on. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]“The new high-performance glass products require special care.” It isn’t just tempered glass that should not be scraped it’s all architectural glass. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]I spoke with a wealthy customer of mine yesterday. It is my first time cleaning for her. Big house, the windows will cost $1,250 to clean at $3.50 a pane. The back of the house with the view has all brand new Harvey hi-tech windows. I told her that it is a good thing she hired a good painter because her beautiful new windows can not be scraped with a razor. She was relieved to know that I would be following the manufacturers recommended guidelines. [/FONT]
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[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]If you read the new GANA bulletin it says no razor on any new architectural glass. If the windows have been badly messed up the customer has a problem. Read the bulletin and weep Mrs. Customer! The new alternative methods will cost somewhere between $10 and $20 per pane! BTW my razor blading price is $1 - $2 a pane. She was grateful for the info and will always hire a good painter. [/FONT][/COLOR]
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There is no possibility of fabricating debris on annealed (non- heat-treated glass.)
What’s new?
What are the methods?
Are there any risks involved with the new methods?
Did you know alternative methods that involve harsh chemicals also violate manufacturers instructions? I personally could care less what GANA says. They are trying to bully the wcing industry into backing down and sadly some are. I don’t respond well to bullying so the information I carry is the MWCoA bulletin on FD. Just used it yesterday w/ a customer who understood my need to be protected from a defective product.
By the way, is GANA going to hire someone to go around and put no scrape stickers on all the garbage glass their members already have out there?
Good point, Micah 
I love this line, I’m gonna use this
[QUOTE=mdefiel;37913]I think a bird dropping, and a little artillery shotgun fungus can be handled with a little steel wool or a few scapes with a one inch safety razor. Even two or three drops of paint on each pane of glass isn’t a problem.
[B]Here’s a powerful point (and thanks Mike for bringing it up) GANA says a 1" razor is OK. Two things - there is no such thing as a 1" razor and in one breath they say no razors ever and then you can use a 1" razor. Why? Because they know it’s the only real way to get the glass clean of certain debris.[/B]
After all the integrity of the glass is fine, and will remain beautiful and clear for the life of the product as long as you don’t try to clean it with anything more aggressive than a cloth and soapy water.
[B]You forgot to add - as long as no one ever gets anything on the glass, ever![/B]
[quote="“mistersqueegee,post:59,topic:3556”]
I said it tongue and cheek. That’s what they say in their literature. They make it sound like a grand product. And it really is a great product until you need to use a razor on it.
